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#666171 - 09/02/16 4:27 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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' it does give a good overall impression though.'


Nice pun......


It looks like the old girl will be a nice bit of kit when it's together Gavin.
You don't seem to have missed a trick.

That head gasket is quite thick isn't it? I would prefer to use a thinner one and a barrel base gasket or two myself.



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#666177 - 09/02/16 6:02 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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John has 1 mm head gaskets as an option, each mm gives 6.05 cc more or less CC volume, currently its around 9.something to one with the 2mm currently fitted so a 1mm gasket would bring it up to around 10:1 , maybe pushing it with the fuel available, although Marks motor seems to manage considerably more. Given that the current set up seals very well and I am using stock con rods I may err on the safe side, but who knows, my reluctance to lift the barrels (again) and refit the pistons might swing it.
After searching everywhere for the throttle grip it showed up on the bench! next the quest for cam timing, about to explore the other key way options on the cam wheel to get as close to book numbers on the retarded side as I can. Also scrounged up a chain link with x ring seals, will rob this for the oil manifold seals , other folks have posted about these here, supposed to give a more oil tight joint.

The new AMAL rebuild kits are good, apart from the usual gaskets/ seals , filter they come with new improved pilot air screws, these are noticeably more refined than the old ones, better machining and a subtly different taper.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/02/16 6:07 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666226 - 09/02/16 2:21 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Nick

I've used three base gaskets in the passed. But some people just want to rebuild the engine in the simple manner, bought one gasket set and are only going to use it as a road bike. so the 2mm head gasket gives them the option. As you said for the ideal squish etc a 1mm head gasket is the best way to go. In that they get a one build motor which will give good performance, not quite out of the box so to speak, however with a straight forward build and a motor that should run with out pinking.

In Gavins case he's taking Mark's porting, and using the big bore with the 5-speed cluster, so I'm with you that a 1mm head gasket would be the better option now, as opposed to his original intention.

Guess thats the trouble when you start chasing the dragon (did't mean that in any way to what might be inferred).

John

#666247 - 09/02/16 7:11 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Fair enough John, it's not the end of the world to change the gasket down the track anyway.

(I bet he does though!!!!)



#666285 - 09/03/16 8:21 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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When I first got the bike Devimead used to offer two gasket thicknesses, I tried the thin one ( less than a mm) and struggled to keep the head sealed, there always seemed to be oil getting out somewhere. Even lapped the head to the barrels to try and cure this. I reckon the alloy barrels help here with less differential movement.
I agree about the thinner gasket option giving a better CC shape, OK go on youve talked me into it, the 2mm one has worked well with the undersize tapped holes , same thing with a 1mm would be OK, I have a few base gaskets lying around, at least one of the thicker black ones somewhere, and a dodgy looking pink one thats never been used.
\Been researching wasted head bolts, taking shank down to thread min diam means the whole bolt is stretching rather than the threaded section, good for alloy barrels as the clamping force does not get so high as the alloy head grows, less prone to tearing out threads ,I found most interesting info/graphs on a vee dub site which I can no longer find.

While the heads away the fasteners may go on a spinning diet, should I , shouldnt I?

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/03/16 8:26 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666287 - 09/03/16 8:53 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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kommando Online content
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It is not recommended to waist the bolts on a lathe by ARP, not sure why. They mill them instead which would take an age on a mill and need a rotary table, a good alternative I have seen is to mill the unthreaded section on 3 sides to form a triangular shaft.

#666445 - 09/04/16 12:37 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Here is the cam pinion , key ways are no.1 with the etched arrow, number 2 with the red dot, and number 3 unmarked.


Number 1 advances the cam timing about 5 degrees, number 2 is dead on , number 3 retards about 6 degrees. i am now using number 2, it was previously in number 1.

The red enamel marks should help save confusion in future.

Fitted the chain x rings to the oil manifold , they are about 20 thou larger OD than the O rings but it seems to nip up OK, time will tell if they are any good. Edit, retrospective, they leaked right away, on inspection one was distorted, now oil tight with normal O rings.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/24/16 3:24 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666661 - 09/06/16 7:06 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Correct handlebar mounts assembled.


Front brake cable shroud from a box of stuff, MZ origins.

Motor reassembled, timed up , head surfaces cleaned , gasket annealed, waiting patiently.

Running out of jobs, shock off for a tart up, the shortened stand is great , works very well, easy to deploy.


Pre-stretching the centre stand spring.


Caught the blow lamps having a stand off, the one on the left is a new find, a 200 K, with integral soldering iron stand, needs a new piston seal, the one on the right is more nimble, I think it will win.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666707 - 09/06/16 3:36 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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With the bike on its own two wheels I was able to get some fork base lines established.
Using the top of the top nut to the fork drain screw i measured the following.

Max extension on stand , 755 mm.

off stand , rider on , brake on sink down and relax, 715 mm.

lift up and relax 725mm

725-715 = 10 mm stiction. 10/2=5 mm

Max extension 755 - ( 725+5=730 for midpoint no stiction) = 755- 730 = 25 mm static sag.

these figures are without cylinder head and fuel tank and oil,but I added the babbit ingot to compensate, wont be too far off.

Rechecked after slackening front mudguard mounts, fork end clamps , pinch bolts,
nipped up from bottom to top , similar readings.
Sag should be around 25% of total travel, total in this case is 6", or 152.4 mm, 152.4 / 4= 38.4 mm. The pre-load adjuster are wound in flush with the top nut , will back these off a bit and re try.

Froma web site on suspension tuning
"Street bikes run between 25 and 33 percent of their total travel, which equates to 30 to 35mm. Roadrace bikes usually run between 25 and 30mm. "

So I am in the ball park, which means no fork shortening by adjusting spacers , not without softer springs. That can wait.

Bouncing it around the damping seems effective, not a fair test though.

Stripped the back shocks to clean them up, one was suspiciously oily inside, but seems to damp OK. These Hagons are very old and due for replacement soon, even sooner now that I have found this. The non oily damper would stay in when compressed , the oily one self extends slowly after compression?

Had a nasty moment today, called SRM to see if they had received the head, not, according to the desk wallah.

Panicked, cant find the postal chitty with the tracking number.
Down to the PO, they give me some forms , no record of tracking number on file.

Another call to SRm, this time it turns out warranty work goes a different way, my head is in the shop, a quick chat with Geoff and I am placated. whew, PO calls up seconds later to say they found the tracking details in the "special " drawer, all is well, hurray.

A few other jobs to do, check wheel alignment, top up all lube levels, polish wheels.

I want to smell combustion ,fed up smelling of paraffin and meths.


Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/06/16 3:41 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666709 - 09/06/16 3:49 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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If you haven't already Gavin, order a pair of 105 needle jets and to be on the safe side a pair of Norton needles. Your going to find a rich mixture and slow until you get it tuned in.


beerchug
#666716 - 09/06/16 4:33 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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thanks Allan.
i have 105s on the shelf , somewhere, will get Norton needles, wWhats special about them?
Also have no.3 slides and jets 190 -230 in stock.
Current set up.
MJs 200, NJs 106, slides 3.5, needle stock,no.1 top groove, pilot screws 1 turn and 1.25 turns.
This set up ran well, clean pick up, no surging, about 1 mile with choke to warm up., good mileage.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/08/16 12:07 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666731 - 09/06/16 7:27 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Back to the forks, took off the bars to adjust pre load, checked LHS damper adjuster, no function, just spinning, took the top nut off, the coupling for the damper adjsuter had unscrewed from the top alloy central screw, put it all back together with more engagement in the coupling ( soft ally threads on the male part), backed off the preload to two rings showing, about 2mm.
New figures give 43 mm or 28% for sag, that will do, plus the pre load adjusters are clear of the handlebars. Of course once the bike is complete and I have my kit on this may change, the ingot weighs about 20 lbs ( guessing) so its probably not enough.
Stiction is variable without an assistant to steady the bike the figures range from 7.5 mm to 20 mm.
I am sure that will settle down once the new bits settle in a little.
Forks, done for now, back wheel and chains next.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666758 - 09/07/16 2:22 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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The Norton needles you will be able to get from AMAL, the only pair I have are on my lightning. They are fatter than Normal it will help to lean the mixture out further.



Main jets will be a funny one. The first head I worked on, I also sculptured the top top the port around the guide, I had to drop 4 main jet sizes but also lost some top end rpm's, all subsequent heads don't get touched in this area and rev higher and require about 3-4 main jets larger. As your pulling 750cc I couldn't advise either way but I'm guessing you will have to go leaner, as your vacuum signal on the carb will be stronger.

I'd start with the 105 jet and needle in the middle groove for starting with. Strangely enough whilst going lean thoughout most of the range, I've sometimes found I've needed a richer slide, your number 3 should be enough.

If you don't have chokes fitted, I find its a good time to have them fitted. If you've gone too lean you can close them down without melting anything.


beerchug
#666771 - 09/07/16 5:14 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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looked into the Norton commando "4 identifying ring " needles, they were 0.25" longer? and originally paired with a cutaway orifice spray tube, do you fit this as well?. Will see how this goes as is and tweak as needs be.
I have chokes fitted, over the years with more understanding and fuel changing I have ended up with leaner all over from stock 650 settings, 220 MJs now 200s, no.3 slides , now 3.5s, needle no.1 clip, previously middle. the only area that seems to be richer is the pilot air screw settings, 1-1.25 Turns Out.
According to a Norton site i checked out 105 NJs are very different beasts from 106s, could get interesting.

not many jobs left, the oil spine sump plate hasnt been off for about 20 years, better look in there for completeness sake! i hate doing this job ,theres nothing pleasant about it. I may find something interesting in there.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/07/16 5:19 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666777 - 09/07/16 6:46 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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yes it is longer as well, I would start with the standard needle and then switch if you find the plugs are fouling at cranking speed, or if you start dropping out on cylinders, but if your using the standard cam you might not need to get this lean.

I use the norton needle with the standard spray tube, I asked AMAL about this and was told to refer to John H as per the differences. I still dont know!

One thing I did find aswell was I could get away with more ignition advance with the smaller ports. once your setup it would be worth while advancing a couple of degrees at a time and looking for improvement. With stock setup I was retarding the igntion to get better performance.

Apart from the size the 105 four stroke needle jet is no different to that of the normal 106

I ended up with having to fit 932's to get the mixture leaner, and so the jetting process starts again. I was surprised to find quite a power hop when going up 2mm on the choke size, using the same lean jetting as I ran in my 930's I am now starting to richen it up again.

(928's worked well at bottom end, but with big cam and small ports it was impossible to jet properly, and ran pretty rich)


beerchug
#666779 - 09/07/16 6:49 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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kommando Online content
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I have the Norton needle with cutaway spray tube on a ported and MX camed B44, works well but never fitted a std setup to know if its better or worse.

#666875 - 09/08/16 12:13 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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, "I would start with the standard needle and then switch if you find the plugs are fouling at cranking speed, or if you start dropping out on cylinders, but if your using the standard cam you might not need to get this lean."

What?
How do the needles affect "cranking speed"?

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/08/16 12:16 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#666881 - 09/08/16 1:57 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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I know what your thinking. I can't explain why either.

When I switched from my 473 cam to my x12 cam I couldn't get the bugger to start the plugs were just covered in wet fuel, I ended up fitting the Norton needles and it did start and ran cleanly. If nothing else it got me in a position where I could run the bike and start working on the jetting throughout.


beerchug
#667062 - 09/09/16 6:39 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Wheels aligned using a builders laser, light string,.
last job before the head comes back the oil spine filter.
Not seen the light of day since 2,000 , a few sparkles in the mesh and 40 year old red hermatite,
this eventually let go after soaking in meths and brushing.



I am not in the habit of disturbing this filter, this may be the last time now the spin on filter is BIS.

off for a "swell " time in Tiree, its hurricane season, surfs up, testing plastic to destruction for the next week..


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#667638 - 09/15/16 6:21 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Holed up in surf shack on the Isle of tiree.Plastic holding up well, stainless to alloy failed, testing conditions wind 25-30 knots, logo high surf.UJ pin let go, on the inside luckily.Traigh Thorasdail(the Mazes) claims another victory over a dancing monkey.kiters no longer in the ascendant, windsurfers still in majority, the newness must have worn off.

Back to the bike, it seems SRM do not acknowledge/ reply to e mails, have been trying to find out when the head will return, not the first time i have found this , will telephone today for an update.

Called, paid postage, head and pushrods go in post, kickstart lever to follow after plating. They do get e mails, just not great at responding.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/15/16 7:02 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#667647 - 09/15/16 7:45 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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what was wrong with your pushrods?


beerchug
#667649 - 09/15/16 8:15 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Wrong length, stock, should be A50 length for big bore, shorter barrels.one of the minor advantages of the big bore, piston crown to gudgeon pin is less, hence shorter barrels and pushrods.Shorter = stiffer.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#668663 - 09/23/16 8:42 pm Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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A wee update, back from the Hebrides ( suitably thrashed, got Crossapol in cross off , 15 knots and 4 foot surf all to myself on the last day, lovely, milked one wave to the end of the beach then the wind dropped and took the walk of shame, got so dehydrated I ended up drinking the water from one of the many flotsam bottles on the strand line, it tasted great!)
The head is back from SRM, inlets sitting back into the head a bit further, correct pushrods too. I got a replacement kickstart lever LC style, beautiful piece ,but, it doesnt fit a 71 spindle, the cotter cut away is a different height on the 71, old lever going back on as a temp solution, it has already been weld repaired, years ago and there are signs of cracking near the welds.
Just had a couple of teeth out so not to lively at the mo.
Currently checking head fastener lengths, barrel threads with a view to a thinner head gasket.
Clearance checks tomorrow.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#668683 - 09/24/16 2:46 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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As you may already know Gavin the OIF quadrant is longer than the pre OIF type. I am not sure the real reason why the OIF should be any different though. However, the 3 ball ramp clutch cover is "thicker" for want of the better word than the earlier type and I found that the lever would bind on return with the normal quadrant for my model year when I had the later cover fitted with the early quadrant.

I fitted the later quadrant and ground (hacked would be a better word) enough off so that the early lever would fit with the cotter pin


What doesn't make sense though is... The early quadrant was fitted to the 70 models with no problem and they had the ball ramp clutch. So is the OIF outer cover different or did they grind the kick start
Lever back a bit on the 70 models. I don't know but that's what I found.


beerchug
#668701 - 09/24/16 7:07 am Re: alloy barrels + 5 speeds A65 750 OIF 1971 [Re: gavin eisler]  
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There is one extra screw in the outer cover of the 71,everything about the 71 cases suggests strength compared to earlier cases. The kick start lever is the the same as 71 Triumph twins as far as I can see, this should make sourcing a new one a lot easier. Probably trying to simplify the spares stocks.I have a few 1970 parts lying around , other bits of the gear selector, the "grannies tooth " that engages in the return spring is much chunkier on the 71 compared to the 70.
I reckon that if the company hadnt gone bust the A65 would have seen a few more interesting developments, on paper it is way ahead of both the Triumph ( no push rod tubes ) and the Norton ( solid unit construction , with the camshaft where it gets crank splash) before it finally expired. There are extra unused bosses cast into the rocker cover suggesting more was to come, the timing chest looks like it was meant to take an end feed oil seal, just beaten by the bean counters, the draughtsmen had it planned, the foundries had it cast, shame.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
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