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Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662202
07/29/16 5:30 pm
07/29/16 5:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content
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ohio, usa
i just re-torqued the base nuts on a new 650 triumph build this morning--they're specified for some 35 foot-pounds and hadn't changed at all in about 15 hot-cold cycles, some 60 minutes of run time.

running a solid copper base gasket.



i have no idea what i'm doing.
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Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662206
07/29/16 6:09 pm
07/29/16 6:09 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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I always take up to torque, then slacken each one in turn then retorque. Never had to follow a retorque procedure.

Cruising speed on the A65 is 70mph or 115kph. It will hold that all day long.


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662226
07/30/16 3:09 am
07/30/16 3:09 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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I fail to see why not. Soft compression, milder cam,


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: NickL] #662227
07/30/16 3:10 am
07/30/16 3:10 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Originally Posted By NickL


Try 70mph all day on a '62 Star-Twin', I don't think so.


Why, happened when you attempted it?

Last edited by triton thrasher; 07/30/16 3:11 am.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: NickL] #662390
07/31/16 6:51 am
07/31/16 6:51 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Doing 70 mph all day with soggy suspension, crap brakes and gutless motor is a piece of cake.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662426
07/31/16 2:16 pm
07/31/16 2:16 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,492
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Assuming by "base nuts", Kevin means cylinder base-to-crankcase. There's no explicit call to re-torque these, and 35 ft.-lbs. sounds like a lot. My A65 service manual specifies 21-22, and I would think Triumph would be about the same. In fact, I've never used a torque wrench there, as you would need a special tool on some of them; I just get them as tight as I can with a normal-size 1/2" ring spanner. The only "squish factor" is the gasket, as the cyl barrel is cast-iron. IOW, I wouldn't loosen them to re-torque, just re-check with a wrench to ensure they haven't loosened. If the studs and nuts are clean and in good condition, they probably won't.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662432
07/31/16 2:37 pm
07/31/16 2:37 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content
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ohio, usa
35 foot-pounds is a lot, compared to the 15 and 18 needed for the head. but that's what the factory manual specifies for the 650s. i don't know if that ever changed for the T140s-- in 1973 they didn't print a spec.

i check torques on things separated by gaskets routinely, anyway. on this one i'm chasing oil leaks, not successfully yet.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662436
07/31/16 3:04 pm
07/31/16 3:04 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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What are the bolt sizes (I'm in agreeable with mark and think that it could be a misprint)

35 ft lb could be plausible for a 3/8" bolt but not with a 5/16 for example. (Thread dependant but I'm guessing it's either unf or BSF)


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662453
07/31/16 5:47 pm
07/31/16 5:47 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
as far as i know, the T120s were all 5/16:

63-70 T120:



1969 T!20:



72 T120:



73 T140:



the later T140s had four 5/16 and four 3/8 nuts.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662455
07/31/16 5:55 pm
07/31/16 5:55 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,022
South cone
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reverb Offline OP
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...79 manual specify 20 lbs for those nuts, but is like Mark Z is saying; you do not need a torque wrench. Also 20 is similar to adjust with a wrench.
No leaks in that part; even in my 48 500 daily rider.

Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662457
07/31/16 6:01 pm
07/31/16 6:01 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
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fefsa
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54 through 63 twins manuals says merely to "securely tighten . . . "

dunno. if 35 is too tight, i'm all ears. that's what i've always used.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 07/31/16 6:02 pm.

i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662459
07/31/16 6:09 pm
07/31/16 6:09 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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It's not that you will distort the barrel but you will heavily stress the aluminium case which the studs are pulling on (and hopefully not through) if it's your race motor you have a lot of compression force trying to lift that barrel up. Key thing with anything is making sure all studs are tightened equally.

If my motor is out of the frame when I do the barrel then I do torque ALL the nuts. However with a double down tube frame it isn't easy when the motor is in.


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: Allan Gill] #662466
07/31/16 7:41 pm
07/31/16 7:41 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
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yep, you're right, if the torque setting is incorrect. but every published value from 1963 to 1972 says 35 foot-pounds.

on my own machines, i've always tightened the base nuts with a half-inch extension on my torque wrench:





i use 27 foot-pounds on this extension to achieve the 35 foot pounds specified by the factory. on a triumph, this is easy to do-- no clearance issues.

why shouldn't i use 35 foot-pounds as the correct value?

no arguments on my part, please understand, just interest in where any other information might come from . . .


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662470
07/31/16 8:11 pm
07/31/16 8:11 pm
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...come from the later manuals as I mentioned (20 lbs) looks like a real difference.
Also what s the math to know that you use a wrench and the extension with 27 to get 35?

Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662496
08/01/16 12:16 am
08/01/16 12:16 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,492
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Can't argue with the manual (or can I?)... 35 still seems like a lot for 5/16" studs though.

Yer ahead of me with the torque wrench adapter. An absolute need for A65 cylinder head nuts, but I didn't expect to hear someone make one for the cyl. base nuts.

For the life of me, I can't remember the formula I used to get the torque differential on my A65 cyl. head nut adapter, but the result was 27 ft.-lbs. to get the required 32, and my adapter is only two inches long. Added to the 12" torque wrench, that brings the total to 14".


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662497
08/01/16 2:29 am
08/01/16 2:29 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Kevin, if the threads in the aluminium case are at their limit they will go ping. (Having them all torqued equally reduces this, as usually the weakest goes first) think of the cover screws when some DPO nerk has over tightened them and the threads came out with the screw.

At this point I'd be asking John Healy to chime in, he may turn around and say the 35 ft lb is correct. But I would rather have his take on this than just trust the book


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662513
08/01/16 7:00 am
08/01/16 7:00 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,984
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
its not unknown for factory torque figures to be wrong, there is now a thriving market in OIF fork slider end caps because the manual says 35 ft lb for the end cap nuts ( 5/16" UNF).
Copied over from year to year be seems a bit unlikely , but, not many people had torque wrenches BITD so who knows?

35 ft lb.
It does seem awful high for a 5/16" fastener, my 3/8" head bolts only get to 30( A65).
18-20 would be a more common value in this situation. TT must know this one.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/01/16 7:01 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662617
08/02/16 9:28 am
08/02/16 9:28 am
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,585
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Offline

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Illinois, USA
On my '64 TR6R, the studs for the cylinder base are 3/8" diameter, not 5/16".

The Factory_Service_Manual calls for 35 lb.ft., but Tom Gunn's Engine_Overhaul_Manual says 25 lb.ft. I went with the more friendly 25. I used HondaBond4, with no gasket at the base of the cylinders. I never re-torqued these fasteners. Some 5,000 miles and the joint there is still bone dry.

I made up a couple of wrenches for the base stud nuts on the cylinders by ordering an extra 1/4 x 5/16 W ring spanner from British Tools & Fasteners, and bought a cheap set of crow's foot wrenches from Menard's in 3/8" drive:

[Linked Image]

Then I cut the wrench in half and ground flats on the shank to fit the two smallest crow's foot wrenches:

[Linked Image]

I also ground down the box (ring) end so that it will clear the cylinder fins:

[Linked Image]

Then I got a friend to weld them together as shown here (lower right). I also daubed on some paint to keep them from rusting.

[Linked Image]

Keeping the extension at 90° to the body of the torque wrench lets you read the torque directly per the wrench setting, since torque is the product of the applied force times the perpendicular distance from the line of force to the center of rotation.

[Linked Image]

If, on the other hand, the extension is used in a straight line with the wrench body (or at any angle other than 90°), the "moment arm" is lengthened and it becomes necessary to use ratio and proportion to calculate a lesser wrench setting.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662633
08/02/16 12:42 pm
08/02/16 12:42 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,871
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Thats some expensive torque wrench there Ray! Nice work on the modification. For the 5/16 base nuts on mine i use a 1/4W x 3/16W spanner and the 3/8 square head torque wrench fits in their nicely!

I also use the 90 degree method where possible


beerchug
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662656
08/02/16 4:57 pm
08/02/16 4:57 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,097
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content
fefsa
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted By reverb
Also what s the math to know that you use a wrench and the extension with 27 to get 35?


lol. i have no brain. i just went over and looked. the base nuts on the T120s are all 3/8-inch, not 5/16-inch.

my torque wrench is 14 inches long, and the 1/2-inch wrench i use as an extension is 5 inches.

so when i put the extension on, it becomes an almost-19-inch wrench. to reduce the torque reading, i just subtract 5/19ths of 35 from 35, and get 25.7 foot-pounds (oops, not 27) on the wrench. or sometimes i use it at 90 degrees as well, which technically requires a slight pythagorean correction but in practice is too small to measure.

nice torque wrench, ray.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662679
08/02/16 7:22 pm
08/02/16 7:22 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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...since this morphed in a "what torque thread"; I want to ask what s exactly the torque to apply; because the manual specs are for DRY; but normally in most situation oil; grease or special lubricants are added...

Re: dynamic balance question [Re: reverb] #662699
08/02/16 11:50 pm
08/02/16 11:50 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,492
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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I'm surprised to hear that the cyl. base studs are 3/8", and so, much less concerned about the 35 ft-lb torque spec.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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