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T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. #656184
06/09/16 9:15 pm
06/09/16 9:15 pm
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1973 T100R engine oil level in the tank increased by about 300cc's after riding approximately 50 miles. Checked the primary chaincase and it was just about empty. I am running 20-50 in both areas. The breather is free from obstruction. What stops the oil from going from the primary to the main sump?

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Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656192
06/09/16 10:36 pm
06/09/16 10:36 pm
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There are 3 small holes ... on engines that share oils ,
that allow primary oil to drain back into the sump .
They are just below the level of the drive side bearing ... see picture
(Just below the rear alternator stud hole )

Quote:
What stops the oil from going from the primary to the main sump?

The holes are high enough and small enough
so that a designed amount of oil is left
dammed in the primary to oil the chain .

Is the bike new to you ?
Maybe someone modified the
Stock drain-back arrangement


Last edited by quinten; 06/09/16 10:54 pm.
Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: quinten] #656246
06/10/16 9:19 am
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I recently rebuilt the complete engine. Drain holes are clear,no mods to anything,all stock.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656262
06/10/16 11:53 am
06/10/16 11:53 am
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How much oil was left in the Primary case?
The oil should be circulating back-and-forth between the engine and the primary case, so the level should not vary.

I never liked this system. Problems with the clutch slipping by using modern oils has justified my distrust of it. I have a '72 Daytona that will need a re-build soon, and I plan to change it back to the pre-1970 system at that time.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Irish Swede] #656265
06/10/16 12:10 pm
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No drive side oil seal , right ?

I'd try a 'do over' .
making sure the sump is empty to begin with ? And the primary oil filled to spec .
and see if the problem repeats ?

*** there is oil-dye available for cheap money , add some to the primary oil to track its wandering , it will eventually mix , but before it does , it might show something .
.


Last edited by quinten; 06/10/16 12:59 pm.
Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656291
06/10/16 4:25 pm
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Hi,

Originally Posted By kootbiker
1973 T100R engine oil level in the tank increased by about 300cc's

Given you're only supposed to put 150 cc in the primary chaincase in the first place, the two seemingly-obvious questions that no-one's asked so far are:-

. How long had the bike stood unused before being ridden the "approximately 50 miles"?

. How much oil did you actually put in the primary?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: quinten] #656292
06/10/16 4:28 pm
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My 72 has the same system and when I drain the primary there is never more than a few tablespoons of oil in it. When I primed the primary case with the recommended amount I had to use a turkey baster to suck the excess oil out of the frame. This transfer from case to frame took about a minute. I now use 1/4 pint of oil to prime the chain and all is well. The chain gets lubed from the mist of oil coming out the crank end and you don't want any oil on the clutch anyhow. Next time you have the cover off, tape about a 6" wide piece of cardboard all around the case. Fire up the engine and see how fast that cardboard gets soaked with oil. No one has ever been able to explain how the oil gets sucked back into the engine without the level of oil ever getting up to the holes. But it does and it has been since 1972.
My theory is that the crank case both sucks and blows. Any oil running down the backside of the case and suspended in the air can get sucked back through the crank bearing and the holes. If anyone has a better idea I'd be glad to hear it.
I've laid awake many nights on this one.

Last edited by desco; 06/10/16 4:29 pm. Reason: addition

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656337
06/10/16 8:53 pm
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Originally Posted By Stuart
Hi,

Originally Posted By kootbiker
1973 T100R engine oil level in the tank increased by about 300cc's

Given you're only supposed to put 150 cc in the primary chaincase in the first place, the two seemingly-obvious questions that no-one's asked so far are:-

. How long had the bike stood unused before being ridden the "approximately 50 miles"?

. How much oil did you actually put in the primary?

Hth.

Regards,
The bike sat two weeks and the oil level in the tank was set correctly on the dipstick before riding. The primary was filled with 300cc's according to the manual.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: desco] #656339
06/10/16 8:55 pm
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Originally Posted By desco
My 72 has the same system and when I drain the primary there is never more than a few tablespoons of oil in it. When I primed the primary case with the recommended amount I had to use a turkey baster to suck the excess oil out of the frame. This transfer from case to frame took about a minute. I now use 1/4 pint of oil to prime the chain and all is well. The chain gets lubed from the mist of oil coming out the crank end and you don't want any oil on the clutch anyhow. Next time you have the cover off, tape about a 6" wide piece of cardboard all around the case. Fire up the engine and see how fast that cardboard gets soaked with oil. No one has ever been able to explain how the oil gets sucked back into the engine without the level of oil ever getting up to the holes. But it does and it has been since 1972.
My theory is that the crank case both sucks and blows. Any oil running down the backside of the case and suspended in the air can get sucked back through the crank bearing and the holes. If anyone has a better idea I'd be glad to hear it.
I've laid awake many nights on this one.
I like your answer, it sounds like myself.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Irish Swede] #656340
06/10/16 8:58 pm
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Originally Posted By Irish Swede
How much oil was left in the Primary case?
The oil should be circulating back-and-forth between the engine and the primary case, so the level should not vary.

I never liked this system. Problems with the clutch slipping by using modern oils has justified my distrust of it. I have a '72 Daytona that will need a re-build soon, and I plan to change it back to the pre-1970 system at that time.

Nothing that would drain out after removing primary drain /chain adjuster bolt.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656348
06/10/16 10:44 pm
06/10/16 10:44 pm
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Yes, sure enough, the original, 'factory' Triumph manual lists the capacity of the primary chain case as 300cc.

Right or wrong, that's what it says.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Irish Swede] #656350
06/10/16 11:15 pm
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Maybe I should try 150cc's as Stuart suggests. There is a level plug, I guess pour in till oil is just coming out level hole and measure.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656374
06/11/16 3:50 am
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My t100 manual says 1/2pint

Even the Work Shop manual Supplement T100S, T100T, T100C, T100R (1973) which mentions the change over , for breathers from engine # KD27866 , still says 1/2 pint


I Looked and Found a reference in the (73-74) TR5T workshop manual (same t100 engine)
It says ,
1/4 pint For the primary case . If they mean 1/4pint UK , I believe , thats 4.8 US.oz .

I think Desco got it right when he said
the primary case gets 'primed' with oil and not so much filled .


.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656383
06/11/16 5:09 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted By kootbiker
The bike sat two weeks and the oil level in the tank was set correctly on the dipstick before riding.

We're talking about an assembly of thousands of separate parts, the vast majority of which are nearly half-a-century old; you are clearly not the original owner of this assembly, so it has come to you having been worked on by previous owners and 'mechanics' with a ... uh ... diverse ... range of skills.

Unless you know a given engine doesn't wet-sump, or it can't because you drained the oil from the tank at the end of the previous ride, simply treating it anything like a new bike - "set[ting the level] on the dipstick", putting the wrong quantity of oil in a compartment - and then attempting to draw conclusions from it will lead you to the wrong conclusions; the answers you receive to any questions you then ask will be meaningless. frown

If you're new to your bike, maybe ask questions earlier in a process, like "Is 300 cc. the correct amount of oil for my bike's primary case?", "Are any year-specific manuals available for my bike?", etc. smile

Originally Posted By kootbiker
The primary was filled with 300cc's according to the manual.

You used the wrong manual. Apart from you got that from a workshop manual that covers every 'C'-range model from 1963 onwards - in addition to the change in crankcase breathing, it also covers 350 cc. engines, pre-'68 squish pistons and heads, etc., etc. Plus Meriden is (in)famous for its Misprints. smile

Both the '73 T100R Owner's Manual (US edition) and the '73 T100R parts book are available, showing the correct primary chaincase oil quantity for the bike that you own.

Bear in mind that these manuals were also produced nearly/more than half-a-century ago, when there weren't computers and programs to ensure every last detail was absolutely consistent. So you will find differences; the time to ask a question is when any difference confuses you? smile

Originally Posted By kootbiker
Nothing that would drain out after removing primary drain /chain adjuster bolt.

frown Depends how long you leave that. Bear in mind that the adjuster is a close fit in the hole so there isn't much room for "drain[ing]"; I leave it overnight at least, and I'm still not sure everything in the chaincase drains out.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: quinten] #656385
06/11/16 5:51 am
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Hi Quinten,

Originally Posted By quinten
My t100 manual says 1/2pint
Even the Work Shop Manual Supplement T100S, T100T, T100C, T100R (1973) which mentions the change over , for breathers from engine # KD27866 , still says 1/2 pint

So what?

You're making the same mistake "reverb" has made about parts books; Meriden didn't write "Work Shop manuals" or "Supplements" for amateurs over forty years later; they were written for people who, if they didn't work in a workshop, at least understood normal workshop practice. Triumph Worldwide Service Manager John Nelson was once asked why there were so many misprints in Meriden workshop manuals; "Are there?", he said, "I haven't looked at one in years." ... The people that worked with Triumphs day-in, day-out hardly ever looked at a workshop manual.

Meriden provided basic Owner's Handbooks for owners without more than basic mechanical knowledge. As it happens, the specific US edition of the 1973 T100R (the o.p.'s very bike) Owner's Handbook is available on-line. It says, "Primary chaincase (initial fill) ... 150 c.c."

Originally Posted By quinten
I Looked and Found a reference in the (73-74) TR5T workshop manual (same t100 engine)

Again, so what? In this case, the Owner's Handbook for the o.p.'s actual bike - with the correct quantity shown - is available on a site that's hosted Britbike factory manuals for nearly two decades. For what reason are you making it any more complicated to understand? confused

Originally Posted By quinten
If they mean 1/4pint UK , I believe , thats 4.8 US.oz .

No. You are not understanding the meaning of "(initial fill)". "1/4 pint" isn't "150 c.c." whether it's an Imperial pint or a US pint. All the advised quantities are round amounts only to fill the bottom of the chaincase to where the lowest point of the chain run dips it in the oil to lubricate it and fling a bit about to lubricate the clutch bearing. The position of the drain holes between chaincase and crankcase are not precise from engine to engine; lower and some of that "inital fill" might drain into the crankcase straight away, higher and condensation from the crankcase vapour would raise the level before it started to drain into the crankcase. In either case, the purpose of "initial fill" - to lubricate the primary chain - is still being fulfilled.

Originally Posted By quinten
I think Desco got it right when he said
the primary case gets 'primed' with oil and not so much filled .

confused He must've changed his post since you posted, because I don't see that at all in his post on my browser.

Regards,

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: desco] #656389
06/11/16 6:10 am
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Originally Posted By desco
My 72 has the same system and when I drain the primary there is never more than a few tablespoons of oil in it. When I primed the primary case with the recommended amount I had to use a turkey baster to suck the excess oil out of the frame. This transfer from case to frame took about a minute.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kommando] #656393
06/11/16 6:32 am
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Yes, interesting. The only Triumph unit 500 that had a OIF was the 1973 TR5T Trophy Trail.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656433
06/11/16 11:15 am
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Originally Posted By Stuart
Hi Quinten,

Originally Posted By quinten
My t100 manual says 1/2pint
Even the Work Shop Manual Supplement T100S, T100T, T100C, T100R (1973) which mentions the change over , for breathers from engine # KD27866 , still says 1/2 pint

So what?

You're making the same mistake "reverb" has made about parts books; Meriden didn't write "Work Shop manuals" or "Supplements" for amateurs over forty years later; they were written for people who, if they didn't work in a workshop, at least understood normal workshop practice. Triumph Worldwide Service Manager John Nelson was once asked why there were so many misprints in Meriden workshop manuals; "Are there?", he said, "I haven't looked at one in years." ... The people that worked with Triumphs day-in, day-out hardly ever looked at a workshop manual.

Meriden provided basic Owner's Handbooks for owners without more than basic mechanical knowledge. As it happens, the specific US edition of the 1973 T100R (the o.p.'s very bike) Owner's Handbook is available on-line. It says, "Primary chaincase (initial fill) ... 150 c.c."

Originally Posted By quinten
I Looked and Found a reference in the (73-74) TR5T workshop manual (same t100 engine)

Again, so what? In this case, the Owner's Handbook for the o.p.'s actual bike - with the correct quantity shown - is available on a site that's hosted Britbike factory manuals for nearly two decades. For what reason are you making it any more complicated to understand? confused

Originally Posted By quinten
If they mean 1/4pint UK , I believe , thats 4.8 US.oz .

No. You are not understanding the meaning of "(initial fill)". "1/4 pint" isn't "150 c.c." whether it's an Imperial pint or a US pint. All the advised quantities are round amounts only to fill the bottom of the chaincase to where the lowest point of the chain run dips it in the oil to lubricate it and fling a bit about to lubricate the clutch bearing. The position of the drain holes between chaincase and crankcase are not precise from engine to engine; lower and some of that "inital fill" might drain into the crankcase straight away, higher and condensation from the crankcase vapour would raise the level before it started to drain into the crankcase. In either case, the purpose of "initial fill" - to lubricate the primary chain - is still being fulfilled.

Originally Posted By quinten
I think Desco got it right when he said
the primary case gets 'primed' with oil and not so much filled .

confused He must've changed his post since you posted, because I don't see that at all in his post on my browser.

Regards,
Thanks for the info, yes I have the correct service manual from bikebiz, who would of thought the owners manual would be more accurate than the service manual. You learn something new everday working on britbikes. So it looks like I have been overfilling the primary chaincase, now I will try it with 150cc's.

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656450
06/11/16 2:06 pm
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So, Stuart, a new mechanic in a Triumph shop of old, working on his first T100R or C, is told by his boss to do a full oil change. He refers to the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual, fills the primary case EXACTLY as it tells him, and is at fault for doing so?

How can you justify the incompetence of the folks who wrote and printed the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual, who didn't clarify their meanings, and still listed the capacity of the primary case, on page "GD8, General Data" of the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual, as "Primary Chaincase...1/2 pint (300cc)" ?

It was STILL printed this way in the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual, Triumph Publication Part No. 99-0948, published August 1971. The bikes with the interchangeable oil, primary to engine, and vise-versa, had already been on the road for a full year, yet no such clarification was as yet corrected in said FACTORY WORKSHOP manual.

When it says "FACTORY WORKSHOP manual" we must assume it was NOT written for "amateurs," as you say, but for the "professionals" to which you refer.

Here in the USA, dealers generally refused to sell factory workshop manuals or dealer tools to owners/riders, as they wanted to protect their exclusive monopoly on parts and service. Because of this, I had to order my tools and books from a dealer in Britain, just to be able to maintain my own bike. I got tired of having the bike "come home" from the local dealer with nicks and scratches on it that were not there when I took it in for service.

The OWNERS manual was meant for the "amateurs," the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual was meant for the "professionals," so why wasn't the factory PROFESSIONAL enough to proof-read this stuff before printing it, or RE-printing it, in the latest edition of the FACTORY WORKSHOP manual?

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656461
06/11/16 3:58 pm
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The factory also issued service bulletins to dealers that were corrections.
Years ago I subscribed to a professional journal that used to issue amended pages and you received your monthly mailshot and removed certain pages, updating information.

Triumph workshop mechanics were supposed to attend a school

The repop manual's seem to be of the original document not the updated ones

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Irish Swede] #656587
06/12/16 2:27 pm
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Hi,

Originally Posted By Irish Swede
He refers to the FACTORY WORKSHOP MANUAL,

This is a factory-fresh one, or the usual stained workshop one with the hand-written note by "Primary Chaincase...1/2 pint (300cc)" that says, "150 cc after 1969" or similar?

Originally Posted By Irish Swede
How can you justify

Why would I need to justify it? It's how Meriden - and probably every gadget maker - did/does it. Providing any manual cost/s the company money, so they did/do it as cheaply as possible - it's the same reason we repeat ad nauseam that parts book pictures can't be used as a restoration guide.

Originally Posted By Irish Swede
the FACTORY WORKSHOP MANUAL was meant for the "professionals," so why wasn't the factory PROFESSIONAL enough to proof-read this stuff before printing it,

I was reminded recently that someone quite famous pointed out, no manufacturer pulls their best technicians off the production line or whatever to write manuals.

Regards,

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656595
06/12/16 3:01 pm
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I married into an English family. I know from experience how they are about spending money; they make we Scots and Irish look profligate by comparison.

If they didn't pull their best technicians off the assembly line to write, update or correct their service manuals, they SHOULD HAVE.

Perhaps they would have reduced the numbers of warranty claims, dealer mechanic time charged to repairs, broken parts replaced, and dissatisfied customers if they had done so.

"Cheapness and negligence often go hand-in-hand."

Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kootbiker] #656597
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The Triumph agents' mechanics doing the work back then would know about the changes.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: Stuart] #656599
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Originally Posted By Stuart

I was reminded recently that someone quite famous pointed out, no manufacturer pulls their best technicians off the production line or whatever to write manuals.


kevin thinks stuart is referring to robert pirsig, in zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance . . .

and stuart is quite correct.

i were a technical writer for some 20 years, computers and automotive, and yes, the manuals are often NOT written by the best and the brightest. lots of times these days the manuals are outsourced to somebody who can write, but doesn't know diddly about the subject. and nobody on the mechanical side who knows the subject is typically a competent writer.

and manuals don't bring in immediate profit, so they're always low on the priority list. modern automobile manuals are a classic example-- in the US, they suck, quite simply, and are often wrong both in specs and procedures. look at your car's glove box book, and try to use it to set the clock on the radio. chances are you won't be able to do it following the procedures there, if you can even understand them.

if you want a brit example of a poor manual, look at the triumph instructions for indexing the 4-speed transmission. that is a simple task, and had it been described adequately, would be completely unremarkable in its nature.

but because the offical triumph procedure is so poorly thought-through and so poorly expressed, indexing the gearbox has become something of a task of legendary difficulty. not because it's hard, but because the manual is so bad.

/rant


live every day.
die only once.
Re: T100R oil in primary migrating to oil tank. [Re: kevin roberts] #656663
06/13/16 3:18 am
06/13/16 3:18 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,463
Scotland
Hi Kevin,

Originally Posted By kevin roberts
Originally Posted By Stuart

I was reminded recently that someone quite famous pointed out, no manufacturer pulls their best technicians off the production line or whatever to write manuals.

kevin thinks stuart is referring to robert pirsig, in zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance . . .

bigt Thanks.

Curiously, the book fairies borrowed my copy of ZATAOMM for several years but returned it when I moved house ... they obviously weren't up for moving from the nice warm south-east of England. grin

Regards,

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