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#65558 - 06/13/06 11:48 am Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 6
Bill W in CNY Offline
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Bill W in CNY  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 6
Central NY
I'm upgrading my '75 MK3 to electronic ignition and I read somewhere that the RITA is a better ignition with the MK3 electric start. Any truth to this? Should I go the extra $ for the Lucas?

thanks,


-bill
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#65559 - 06/13/06 12:08 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
norbsa48503 Offline
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norbsa48503  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
Little hard to get a Rita now this guy will help Dyno Dave on this board. The Boyer's some times kick back in doing so they will take out the drive for the starter.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
#65560 - 06/13/06 12:18 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,332
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,332
Bega NSW Australia
You could have a look at these;
http://www.pazon.com/pages/home.asp?s=ZQZIA2hVZlBy
The digital ign claims a low power draw, which probably means it will more likely work properly while the starter is working, which I'm guessing is your consern. Have no experience with them, but thought you might like to see another option.


mark
#65561 - 06/13/06 12:45 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 487
ludwig Offline
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ludwig  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 487
belgium
The "problem" with the analog Boyer is that the total advance is only 11 to 12 deg.
this can leave you with an initial advance of 6 to 10 (crankshaft) deg . This can cause kickbacks or make it hard for the electric starter to make the engine turn over . (Don't shoot me if I'm a few deg off)
I would like to see the advance curve of a Sparks . (job for Dynodave??)

#65562 - 06/13/06 3:17 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,307
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Posts: 9,307
Scotland
Hi Bill,

If you can find one, no question, the Rita is far and away better than any Boyer-Bransden e.i.

The trick is finding one. Lucas stopped producing amplifiers (aka 'black box') a couple of years ago. That said, an amplifier for any bike will do - it's the trigger unit and reluctor (the bit that spins) that are peculiar to a particular model of bike, and they're available brand-new.

Hth.

Regards,

#65563 - 06/13/06 8:19 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Parker:
You could have a look at these;
http://www.pazon.com/pages/home.asp?s=ZQZIA2hVZlBy
The digital ign claims a low power draw, which probably means it will more likely work properly while the starter is working, which I'm guessing is your consern. Have no experience with them, but thought you might like to see another option.
The problem with your analysis of their statement is, that a short dwell system is low AVERAGE current. While this IS true, they would likely run about 3-5 time the SURGE current.
Remember these are typically the 1/2 to 1 ohm coils.... The voltage is down due to the starter current draw, and not due to the ignition current draw, therefore ANY ignition during starter cranking will be down 30-50% over nominal running voltage.

Actually, making spark is NOT the usual problem, but getting it timed correctly IS the problem.
I have not found an ignition "yet" that makes correctly timed sparks (on low voltage condition) besides points and the rita. There-in lies the problem....

I do have 50+ ritas but unfortunately most are BSA, triumph, BMW, and guzzi.
The norton ones are primarily offered to purchasers of my starters.

I have no spare bits/parts...I believe Mistral the original maker of the rita does.

Dave
http://atlanticgreen.com/


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#65564 - 06/17/06 3:52 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
andy@pazonignitions Offline
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andy@pazonignitions  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
Hi,

Can anyone help us?
What is the typical supply voltage to the ignition when cranking on the electric starter?

Our SMART-FIRE ignition fires consistently retarded down to 7.5 - 8 volts.
Our SURE-FIRE ignition will also fire retarded down to the same voltage. It does not advance up as quickly at low revs, even with a low supply voltage.

We haven't had any negative feedback with regards kick-back. We have supplied systems for a variety of electric start machines, including Vincent V-Twin, Honda Goldwing, Moto-Guzzi and BMW. All of their respective owners have given favourable comments on the ignition systems.

Thanks,

Andy @ PAZON IGNITIONS


Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
http://www.pazon.com
#65565 - 06/17/06 5:57 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
L.A.B. Online content
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L.A.B.  Online Content
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
Norfolk, UK
I just checked, and with 'ignition on' I got 11.8 Volts at the Boyer harness connection and with the starter turning the Voltage dropped to 7.2 Volts .

The battery is a rather tired Odyssey PC545 that showed 12.2 Volts across the terminals before the test although it spun the starter (modified four brush Prestolite) quick enough for a start-up.

#65566 - 06/17/06 6:41 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by andy@pazonignitions:
Hi,

Can anyone help us?
What is the typical supply voltage to the ignition when cranking on the electric starter?

Our SMART-FIRE ignition fires consistently retarded down to 7.5 - 8 volts.
Our SURE-FIRE ignition will also fire retarded down to the same voltage. It does not advance up as quickly at low revs, even with a low supply voltage.

We haven't had any negative feedback with regards kick-back. We have supplied systems for a variety of electric start machines, including Vincent V-Twin, Honda Goldwing, Moto-Guzzi and BMW. All of their respective owners have given favourable comments on the ignition systems.

Thanks,

Andy @ PAZON IGNITIONS
Andy
The data you're looking for is on my website.
http://atlanticgreen.com/starter.htm
I used a peak and dip (max/min) capture voltmeter to record the peak currents and minimum voltages during cranking events
MKIII Nortons are probably an especially bad case for ignitions to satisfy unless the owners jump through all kind of upgrade hoops.
I have one of your units for "independent" testing.
So, we shall see. wink

beerchug


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#65567 - 06/17/06 6:43 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
andy@pazonignitions Offline
BritBike Forum member
andy@pazonignitions  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
Hi L.A.B.

Thanks for the voltage readings.
A fully charged 12 volt battery will normally read 12.7 volts or more, so yours is on the low side. However, if it spins the engine over it can't be too bad.

We will do do some tests on our systems at around the 7 volt mark (or as low as we can go) and assess the spark quality and timing.

Andy@PAZON IGNITIONS

PAZON IGNITIONS


Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
http://www.pazon.com
#65568 - 06/17/06 6:50 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
andy@pazonignitions Offline
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andy@pazonignitions  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
Thanks for the link Dave, we tried to access alanticgreen.com earlier without success, but it is ok now!

We will study your test data and report back.
If our system(s) need to run at lower supply voltages we are in a position to rectify this.

We aim to produce products that do what customers want and need, so all the feedback given here is invaluable.

Andy @ PAZON IGNITIONS

PAZON IGNITIONS


Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
http://www.pazon.com
#65569 - 06/17/06 8:50 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
Norfolk, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by andy@pazonignitions:
A fully charged 12 volt battery will normally read 12.7 volts or more, so yours is on the low side.
Hello Andy,

One thing that possibly needs to be taken into consideration is that these bikes (either electric or kickstart) are maybe not used as frequently these days as they would have been?

So I would consider that your unit should if possible be capable of functioning even if the motorcycle's battery isn't in perfect condition or not fully charged?

In an ideal situation the electronic ignition system would be able to function down to a Voltage level below the point where there isn't enough battery power to turn the starter motor.

#65570 - 06/19/06 1:00 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 124
Brithit Offline
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Brithit  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 124
Nebraska, jealous?
Hi Dave, and others reading this. Any plans on you getting into the production biz, and making new complete Rita units? I've followed this situation for a long time since I have two bikes that need something better than an analog Boyer - a MKIII, and a Trident. Recently ordered an Australian made new product - the Tri-Spark ignition for my Trident after reading many rave reviews on it from fellow triple owners. It's the non-waste spark unit, will run on low voltage, and not need the unobtainable four voil coils that the Boyer SHOULD have to work at its best with three coils. That's one down and one to go. I'm wide open for the next one, and wouldn't mind buying one of your starters someday. Right now, I'm running an Odyssey 545 in the big tray, your cables, and a two brush starter, which I only use when the engine is warmed up, and usually just for entertainment purposes! Like when someone asks me if the starter works! Not going to use it for much more than that. I always say that I have it handy for when the bike stalls in traffic, but to my knowledge, that has yet to happen! The thing has been as dependable as a H***A, so I hate to mess with anything, but, you know how it goes. I'll also be watching for your test on the Pazon. I take my hat off to Andy for such a big undertaking, and wish him much sucess.


Don W.

'69 Trident - U.S. Variant
Nortons: '72 Combat ' 75 Interstate
'59 Velocette Venom Clubman
#65571 - 06/19/06 3:12 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
andy@pazonignitions Offline
BritBike Forum member
andy@pazonignitions  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
We have just completed some checks with our 12 volt twin ignition (PA2) at low voltages.
This was done with a variable voltage power supply, our ignition system plus two 6 volt (PVL type) coils, copper-core ht lead and NGK resistor caps.

Sparks are produced down to just below 7 volts (6.7-6.9), low energy but sufficient to jump plug gaps. Plugs used are DENSO W24ES-ZU with 0.6mm (0.024") gap. Better results could well be achieved with non-resistor plug caps.

Raising the voltage to 7.2 (as measured by member L.A.B. when cranking his NORTON) we got better results. With a variable spark gap (no plug caps fitted) we get reasonable looking blue sparks that will jump 3-4mm.

The ignition timing was found to be well retarded, even at very high cranking speeds (approaching idle speed), i.e. between TDC and 10 BTDC (with full advance being at 31).

We cannot accurately simulate all the conditions on a NORTON using our test rig (i.e. starter motor, load dump, partially discharged battery, volt drops etc.), so we look forward to DYNODAVE's results with our system.

Andy @ PAZON IGNITIONS

PAZON IGNITIONS


Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
http://www.pazon.com
#65572 - 07/09/06 3:38 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3
ratus Offline
BritBike Forum
ratus  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3
Hi, just picked up on this thread.

I have been using a RITA for about 20yrs on a modified triumph and swear by it. I have 3-phase 180W alt and NO battery and a small capacitor for a bit of smoothing. Starts a treat if I jump on it nice an 'ard.

I never measured adv/ret , spark intensity, alt voltage or rpm of kickstarting but I reckon this must be pretty minimal conditions and it works well.

Quote:
Any plans on you getting into the production biz, and making new complete Rita units? I've followed this situation for a long time since I have two bikes that need something better than an analog Boyer
Seems that Lucas want a sizable minimum order (thousands) to do a production run and Mistral Engineering dont want to up-front that sort of dough. They still do all the other accessories for a range of bikes, that they made in-house. Just the amplifier units are in short supply.


The AB5 model should me pretty easy to duplicate, it's a one-sided PCB with about 5 transistors and a few resistors. One, a medium power device, will need a design replacement since it is a Lucas device back from the times when they actually made semiconductors. That should not be too hard but requires a good degree of understanding.

cool

#65573 - 07/09/06 3:58 pm Re: Boyer or Lucas RITA?  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3
ratus Offline
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ratus  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3
PS I've just fitted a RITA to my Guzzi Le Mans and the timing is very irratic. Anyone have any experience of this? Thx.


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