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T140V disk brake service #647030
04/03/16 4:09 pm
04/03/16 4:09 pm
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Kentucky
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Linden Offline OP
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Hey guys;

I need to service the brakes on this project bike, a '79 Bonneville. This question pertains to removing the calipers. Is it necessary to remove the wheels to get the caliper off? I have to drop the front anyway, but since they are both a one piece caliper body, I can't see anyway to remove them without having to drop the wheel and brake disk.

The Clymer manual really doesn't say one way or the other.

Thanks

Linden

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Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647032
04/03/16 4:36 pm
04/03/16 4:36 pm
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Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
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Originally Posted By Linden
Is it necessary to remove the wheels to get the caliper off?


Front, yes.

Rear, no, but the caliper carrier plate would need to be swung down until the caliper is clear of the disc.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647033
04/03/16 4:51 pm
04/03/16 4:51 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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Thanks LAB, you just saved me a ton of work. Yes I can see the plate and should be able to do this pretty easy.

Let me go on to explain just what the brake issue is. This bike has been in storage a long time. Both brakes drag as you push the bike. On both, the pads are good, the disk is good, discolored, but not warped. It's like the alignment is off between the disk and caliper. with the fluid drained it will still drag, but just on one side of the disk, evenly.

I really just want to clean it all up, the calipers that is, but I don't think that will solve the problem with the dragging and alignment.

Any ideas?

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647037
04/03/16 5:26 pm
04/03/16 5:26 pm
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Originally Posted By Linden


Let me go on to explain just what the brake issue is. This bike has been in storage a long time. Both brakes drag as you push the bike. On both, the pads are good, the disk is good, discolored, but not warped. It's like the alignment is off between the disk and caliper. with the fluid drained it will still drag, but just on one side of the disk, evenly.


A rear caliper/disc misalignment problem may be caused by the "Guide Plate" [12] having been fitted on the outside of the swingarm lug as the parts drawing tends to suggest it should be, however, the plate must be fitted on the inside of the lug.



It's something to check although the dragging is probably due to the long period the bike has sat in storage and would certainly benefit from a complete brake overhaul in which case you may find the Lockheed brake manual (below) useful if you haven't seen it.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Maint...umph_Norton.pdf

If you think there is front disc/caliper misalignment, then I think we may need some clear photos to see what that problem might be?

Also:
Spacing washers (not shown in the parts books) on the caliper retaining bolts between the rear caliper and the carrier plate are sometimes needed to get the caliper slot positioned centrally over the disc.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/03/16 5:54 pm.
Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647043
04/03/16 6:05 pm
04/03/16 6:05 pm
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The front caliper. Can be removed for service without taking the front heel off! Remove the brake hose. Take off the decorative cover. Remove the two lock nuts that retain the caliper. Double nut the two studs and remove them. The caliper will now slide off the disc.


Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647044
04/03/16 6:10 pm
04/03/16 6:10 pm
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Bleeding the caliper in the hanging position after it has been serviced will only be successful if you prime the caliper before you hang it on the bracket. Before offering the puck to the caliper pour about 1/4" of brake fluid in the cavity then install the piston until brake fluid fills the transfer ports. Do this to both side and assemble the two keeping the transfer ports at the top.

A full explanation, and other hints to do this job, are In the latest issue of the TIOC newsletter Vintage Bike.


Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: L.A.B.] #647052
04/03/16 6:59 pm
04/03/16 6:59 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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Originally Posted By L.A.B.
[quote=Linden]



Also:
Spacing washers (not shown in the parts books) on the caliper retaining bolts between the rear caliper and the carrier plate are sometimes needed to get the caliper slot positioned centrally over the disc.


Washers or some type of shim was my first thought. Here are a couple cell phone pics.

In the second shot, you can see that there is no room on the inside of the caliper, but a gap on the outside. The rear is the same way. If there were washers to remove, it might align, but there are no washers on the bracket mounting the caliper. Front and back, the side of the caliper nearest the spokes is the side dragging.



Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647059
04/03/16 7:54 pm
04/03/16 7:54 pm
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Is the nut [8] tight? And is it right up against the LH fork slider? If the answer to both questions is yes, perhaps there is a problem with the bearing assembly?



As for the rear brake, it's difficult to say what the problem is without clear photos or more detailed information.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: L.A.B.] #647062
04/03/16 8:41 pm
04/03/16 8:41 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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I backed off the nuts on the pinch blocks at the end of the fork tubes, and it seems to spin without rubbing now. So maybe the axle is off a bit? I can't get pics of the rear brake right now, I will have to remove the muffler.

Thanks for the link to the brake manual. That helps alot. I'm going to just hit the calipers with brake cleaner and a toothbrush. The "action" of the brakes works, no leaks, the fluid seemed ok. So either the brake disk moved or the calipers moved, and I am just going to have to figure it out once I get it apart. I'll post more pics when that happens.

The front wheel spins very easy, no sticky areas, and it even seems to be balanced well. I noticed the tire seems out of round, probably from sitting in one place for years. After I get these brakes sorted, it may be ready to fire up! (assuming the electrics work)

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647091
04/04/16 5:10 am
04/04/16 5:10 am
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I noticed the front hub in your photo has the silver 'hammered' enamel (Hammerite) paint finish.
For the 1979 model year, the hubs were supposed to have been polished and lacquered, so could it actually be a late '78 model?

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Brochures/1970/79Triumph-Brochure.pdf




Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647104
04/04/16 6:05 am
04/04/16 6:05 am
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The hoses will be shot by now.
Replace them
They delaminate and act as one way valves

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647111
04/04/16 8:06 am
04/04/16 8:06 am
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Hi Linden-

Assuming your bike has the underslung caliper on the rear, if you're missing the spacer that goes between the speedo drive and caliper bracket, you can experience alignment issues.

From L to R it should look like this: speedo drive, spacer, caliper, wheel adjuster, swingarm, wheel adjuster, washer, nut.

Get rid of the Clymer manual and use a proper factory manual. This is not the correct year for your bike, but you can use it for the brake info as it's the same:

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/1970s/73-78-Triumph-Bonneville-Tiger-Workshop-Manual.pdf


HTH,

Steve



Attached Files IMG_7026.JPG
Last edited by JubeePrince; 04/04/16 8:10 am. Reason: Removed redundant link

'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647121
04/04/16 9:16 am
04/04/16 9:16 am
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Linden Offline OP
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Wow, thanks guys.

I guess this may actually be a '78, although the paperwork says '79. Thanks for the manual, the Clymer came with the bike.

I'll put new brake lines on my shopping list.

Jubee, mine is exactly like the one in your photo. I can't see that it has ever been apart. Later today I will take the rear brake off to clean it.

If I get it all back together and the alignment still is off, I'm going to try the old english spanner (hammer) and see if that could help.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647124
04/04/16 10:11 am
04/04/16 10:11 am
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Norfolk, UK
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Originally Posted By Linden
I guess this may actually be a '78, although the paperwork says '79.


If it's '78 'model year', the second letter of the two-letter engine and frame serial number prefix will be 'X' (?X). If '79 model year it will be 'A' (?A)

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647165
04/04/16 3:28 pm
04/04/16 3:28 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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It's AX, so it looks like that would be a 1978. Thanks LAB.

This afternoon I'm working on the electrics. Fingers crossed.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647169
04/04/16 4:03 pm
04/04/16 4:03 pm
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Originally Posted By Linden
It's AX, so it looks like that would be a 1978.


Yes, that would be January 1978.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647175
04/04/16 5:57 pm
04/04/16 5:57 pm
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Originally Posted By Linden

If I get it all back together and the alignment still is off, I'm going to try the old english spanner (hammer) and see if that could help.


Put the hammer down, put your hands up and step away from the bike. Slowly.

If you're still having alignment issues upon reassembly, post pictures and we'll help. wink

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647274
04/05/16 3:14 pm
04/05/16 3:14 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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OK, I got the front caliper off. It looks like one piston is frozen. I haven't put it in a vise yet, but it won't push back in by hand. This could be bad, as the Lockeed manual says this would necessitate replacement.

On a less than good note the blocks at the end of the fork lowers, both were split. Like somebody tried a Evel Kenievl on it.

Also, the rear wheel does need to come off to remove the brake assembly. So I'm going to take care of one end at a time.




Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647285
04/05/16 4:53 pm
04/05/16 4:53 pm
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Originally Posted By Linden
On a less than good note the blocks at the end of the fork lowers, both were split. Like somebody tried a Evel Kenievl on it.


That often happens because the torque figure of 25 lb. ft. given in the manuals for "cap bolts" is WRONG.
The cap nuts should be tightened to 15 lb.ft.

Originally Posted By Linden
Also, the rear wheel does need to come off to remove the brake assembly.


I can assure you that it doesn't!




Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647291
04/05/16 5:44 pm
04/05/16 5:44 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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Hi LAB;

Your photo looks the same as my setup. The axle would need to be pulled out to free the caliper mounting plate. And the muffles have to come off to pull the axle. Not the same as taking the whole rear tire out i know. But doing this in the man cave, I have no way of propping it up. So I'll do the front end first and then the back.

I'm worried about the piston thing though. It's not volunteering to move. Tomorrow I plan on putting it back together to see if it will move with brake fluid.

Now on the bright side, I just got the NEWEST AMAL IN THE WORLD. Shipped this mourning. Ready to fit to the BSA B44. Now I just need to change the tires and tubes and that one is one the road.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647297
04/05/16 6:10 pm
04/05/16 6:10 pm
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Originally Posted By Linden

Your photo looks the same as my setup. The axle would need to be pulled out to free the caliper mounting plate.


Yes, but not all the way, just enough for the caliper plate to drop (unless the axle has been fitted from the wrong side!).


Originally Posted By Linden
And the muffles have to come off to pull the axle.

Not the same as taking the whole rear tire out i know. But doing this in the man cave, I have no way of propping it up. So I'll do the front end first and then the back.


If the LH passenger footrest bolt is removed there is usually enough flexibility in the pipe to wedge the muffler down so the axle can be pulled out by the necessary amount, or, loosen the pipe clamp and slide it off. No need to touch the RH muffler at all.
No need to prop anything, once the caliper plate has dropped free the axle can be slid back in again.




Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/05/16 6:38 pm.
Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647307
04/05/16 7:14 pm
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If the back brakes work at ALL, use the old fluid to push out the pistons before you start to disassemble everything. Have something to jam between the pistons, so if one is frozen it will free up before you push the other one out. Sometimes a little heat from a torch can help free things up too.

I would put the front caliper halves back together and use the front master cylinder to get that front piston unstuck. If the front master is not working, rig the front caliper to the rear master cylinder.

If you are rebuilding the caliper, removing the rear wheel is technically not necessary, but it makes the PIA job a LOT easier (as does removing the right (timing side) silencer). Removing the left (primary side) silencer is a must on my bike when doing this job.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647327
04/05/16 10:25 pm
04/05/16 10:25 pm
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Linden Offline OP
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You know, I'm just being a whiner about the rear wheel. I'll get it done. Just adds a couple days.

Steve - that is exactly what I was thinking. I'll get right on it. Sometime tomorrow.

Linden

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647382
04/06/16 7:44 am
04/06/16 7:44 am
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if you hadn't split the caliber, then using a bit of wood and an air line ( or fluid) works to get the pistons out.

they might be salvageable.
I have stainless ones.

Re: T140V disk brake service [Re: Linden] #647422
04/06/16 12:25 pm
04/06/16 12:25 pm
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If you take the shocks off and block up the rear wheel you can slide the axle out enough - over the muffler - in order to release the brake plate for bleeding.

This is also the trick for getting rear wheel off without putting the bike on a lift or taking off the mufflers. I hate to disturb those mufflers and head pipes with the push in spigots -- if they're on and their tight best leave them that way!

For my brakes I use a home grown pressure bleeder I made with a 1/2 gallon pump sprayer and some tubing, pumping fluid down from a spare MC cap I drilled and jury rigged with a hose barb fitting and some permatex No. 1 - works great. I use the standard rubber cup (with the bottom cut off and paper gasket to seal the MC) to be sure the pressurized fluid doesn't leak or worse spray out.

When the system is full and the fluid is running clear, I close the bleeder screw, loosen the pump sprayer cap - slowly!- to depressurize the system, then loosen, but don't remove, the MC cap -- even slower -- with a rag in my free hand. The fluid in the MC - which is full to the top at this point - then siphons off back into the hose sprayer (assuming it's lower than the MC), until the MC level drops below the hose barb -- leaving the MC just below the ideal amount! With more planning I would have cut the hose barb so it leaves exactly the right amount, but to be honest this side effect of my system was a surprise bonus I didn't expect.

I put a gas filter in the tubing line, and I never open the hose sprayer tank to the outside - except to refill it. I keep my left over brake fluid there to use next year.


I use this system every year to flush the system and after a complete rebuild about 15 years ago haven't had any brake problems


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