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Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644692
03/17/16 1:24 pm
03/17/16 1:24 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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We are all restoring these old clunkers way away from a controlled environment with equipment regularly calibrated against traceable standards and with rigid quality standards and controls.
In this situation one of the clinchers to me is that when you crimp a terminal you do not know if it is a good joint without tugging at it and partially (or fully) damaging it.
Whereas with a soldered joint you do not need too much experience or skill to see the solder flowing and making a good wet joint.
For me--I have my engineering experience to guide me---spending some years as Chief Engineer of a radiator manufacturer soldering together copper/brass heat exchangers--and also seeing crimped joints fail in the Middle East and causing fires.
So--it is soldering for me----all you guys have to make your own decisions.
HTH

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Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Tridentman] #644697
03/17/16 2:14 pm
03/17/16 2:14 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,700
Pacific northwest
Q
quinten Offline
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Pacific northwest

Nasa provides 6 pages on crimping
And 100 pages on how to solder .
The logical conclusion , by page volume ,
Is
Soldering is the more complex skill to master .

... read the pdf .
There are also hours of , painfully
Slow ,
How to do it right
nasa/avionics soldering training videos on goo-tube .
https://youtu.be/0SnOW2VdCTI

.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: quinten] #644706
03/17/16 3:10 pm
03/17/16 3:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted By quinten
Nasa provides 6 pages ...
OK, let's not get too carried away with how NASA specifies how things have to be done. I finished my part of the work on an instrument that if approved would take photographs of one of the moons of Jupiter only after the final instrument was locked down for two years in preparation for launch, then if it survived launch conditions, then five years in transit at very low temperature, followed by passing through the intense radiation belt of the planet before reaching the moon Io. Specifications for everything are designed to maximize the probability of survival through all of that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_Volcano_Observer

As a result, NASA is incredibly conservative in their approach to engineering. Their process for ranking new instruments for possible approval takes away points for every deviation from something that has been done before. That is, an instrument that precisely duplicated one that was previously successful would get the highest grade in this part of the evaluation process, and every feature that was new or innovative would take away points. So, proposers have to balance repetition with innovation.

Anyway, while information useful to us certainly is contained in NASA publications it's not as simple as just copying what they do. It's not that what they do wouldn't necessary work for us, it's that in most cases it would be gross overkill. Judgement has to be applied to take from NASA what is relevant for a very different application, and ignore what isn't.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644711
03/17/16 3:27 pm
03/17/16 3:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,081
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Coming from a power station background I am used to crimped connections made in the way Andy describes, the ratcheting type tool is the preferred/ obligatory crimpers choice. The most common electrical failures I witnessed were caused by oxide layers forming on screwed together terminals, (pinch type), where dissimilar metals would create high resistance joints which played merry hell with 4- 20 ma signals, Resistance Temperature Detectors ( RTDs) give very unreliable indications beacause of this, resulting in many false alarms and trips, especially when compared to the 100 % reliable mercury in steel capillary systems which they replaced.. Vibration induced failure of soldered components was not unknown, but given the number of connections in a station even the failure rate of these would be somewhere like 2 in a thousand every ten years. I was told by the light current guys that the most common cause of solder joint failure ( after a dry joint ) was excess flux causing corrosion and weakening the joint..


71 Devimead A65 750
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Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: ] #644792
03/18/16 2:11 pm
03/18/16 2:11 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted By needing
I shall henceforth correctly solder all correctly crimped joints ...
At best, at this point you've only learned enough from this thread to be dangerous.

What type of crimp-on connectors will you use? Insulated with vinyl? Nylon? Heat shrinkable insulation? No mention has yet been made of the differences, and the trade-offs of each of these, for use on a motorcycle. Once you realize there are different types of insulation, how do you tell them apart?

And what does "correctly solder" mean for a crimp-on connector? Solder before crimping, as would be done for a solder-type connector, or solder after, and what are the consequences of each since the design assumes there only will be crimping? Further, although all crimp-on connectors of a similar style (e.g. ring terminals) look the same on casual inspection they do not perform the same.

The cheapest connectors and crimping tool from Harbor Freight can get the electrons flowing, just as a Vice/Mole-Grips can be sufficient for a lot of mechanical work on a bike. But, in both cases, people can do a lot better with the proper tools. If they know what the proper tools are, and want to use them.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644797
03/18/16 3:33 pm
03/18/16 3:33 pm
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Posts: 637
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
I don't pretend to have either the practical experience or the academic credentials of many who are posting on this thread, but to me the arguments being made back and forth are akin to how many angels will fit on the head of a pin. Clearly a properly soldered connection or a properly crimped connection will do the job. Whether one is intrinsically better than another depends on whose authority you give more weight. A properly crimped connection obviously beats an improperly soldered connection and a properly soldered connection beats an improperly crimped connection. As for me, I have lousy soldering skills, so I crimp. I have one of the expensive ratcheting crimping tools for bullet connectors from British Wiring. When I use it my connections look like the factory and don't pull apart. I have a cheaper ratcheting connector I use for other connections which I usually crimp twice- once for the wire and, depending on the connector, once for the insulation. This has been my practice for at least the past 10 years. I have had no problems. It works for me and my home made wiring looms are nice and tidy.

Ed from NJ

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: edunham] #644801
03/18/16 4:17 pm
03/18/16 4:17 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted By edunham
ratcheting crimping tools for bullet connectors from British Wiring. When I use it my connections look like the factory and don't pull apart
Not to say there's anything wrong with that crimping tool, but your connections can't "look like the factory" because the factory didn't use hexagonal crimping tools, but they did use solder.

Originally Posted By edunham
to me the arguments being made back and forth are akin to how many angels will fit on the head of a pin.
There is an essential difference. It doesn't matter how many angels fit on the head of a pin, but it does matter how you make electrical connections on a motorcycle.

As I wrote in my last post, a kit from Harbor Freight probably would be fine, and the connections probably won't fail. Others, like you, might have found other solutions that work fine for them. However, some people might wonder if there are different/better alternatives. If they do they will quickly find there are a large number of choices, and that in itself may be overwhelming. My guess is that many of those people would like to know what others who understand those options have decided for themselves are the "best" choices to use when wiring a motorcycle. I also will speculate that not everyone reading this thread knew there are significant differences in crimpers and crimp-type connectors.

Since just saying "Use X because I told you so" shouldn't be convincing to anyone, discussion of options has to take place in order for people to know what the choices are, and to have some assurance they've been given proper consideration. Also, the "best" choice for someone interested in maintaining original appearance almost certainly will be different than for someone who isn't, so again discussion of options has to take place. I'm sorry if this strikes anyone as weighing angels on a pin.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644803
03/18/16 4:34 pm
03/18/16 4:34 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,700
Pacific northwest
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quinten Offline
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... LOL

Originally Posted By Magnetoman
OK, let's not get too carried away ...

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644811
03/18/16 4:57 pm
03/18/16 4:57 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Besides--everyone knows that there are 17 1/2 angels on the head of a pin.
What very few people know is that their feet have to be soldered to the pin to keep them there!

But--seriously (you think I wasn't being serious?) an article by MMan setting out the options and their pros and cons would I think be very helpful to many people.
So--go for it MMan!


Last edited by Tridentman; 03/18/16 4:58 pm. Reason: Spelling
Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644818
03/18/16 5:36 pm
03/18/16 5:36 pm
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Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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Hmmm, I looked over this thread and it seems that no one mentioned that the terminal should be sized to the wire. To me it is the first consideration whether you choose to solder or crimp. It is doubly important when crimping.


Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644821
03/18/16 6:10 pm
03/18/16 6:10 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted By Tridentman
an article
Opinions seem to fall into two categories: 1) we already know enough about this, and 2) more information would be useful. However, I'm not sure yet what the angels will advise.

Originally Posted By needing
Should I:
1. be afraid of that 'dangerous' joint that may fail while I am actually riding?, or
2. be afraid to actually ride my bike until all joints are rendered not 'dangerous'? or
3. just ride:
Yes, yes, and no.

Some years ago I was riding a friend's A10 in Ireland to diagnose an intermittent fault with his magneto-replacement ignition system (the twisty mountain road from Glengarriff to Kenmare, for those who know it). The ignition abruptly cut out as I was passing a truck. Had I not been riding with this possibility in mind it easily could have come at a time that left me as someone's hood ornament.

In the case of the A10 the issue was with the "black box" control unit, but it just as easily could have been a wire that came loose from a connector. The consequences of bad wiring can be much more serious than having a dim headlamp. The photograph is of the connectors that someone is relying on not to fail while riding his Vincent:



If your wiring looks anything like the above, my answer to your question #3 is a definite 'no'.

Addendum:
Originally Posted By needing
molten solder can readily join wire to mismatched terminals if due to necessity or availability constraints.
Do not pay attention to this dangerous advice.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 03/18/16 6:15 pm. Reason: Addendum
Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644826
03/18/16 6:41 pm
03/18/16 6:41 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,248
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Offline
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Bolton Lancs UK
I use the "modern" style bullet connectors along with the correct ratchet tool. The connector is crimped onto the cable "OEM style" (the ends of the crimped section are turned in on themselves)also onto the insulation. The connectors also have waterproof boots to keep the rain and shit out.
Most of my connections in my work are into screw clamp terminals, I use crimped on "bootlace ferrules" these are also useful in connections to Lucas rotary switches etc to stop the screw splaying the strands


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Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Andy Higham] #644835
03/18/16 8:46 pm
03/18/16 8:46 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Offline

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Well, Magnetoman, it looks like this is turning into a nice prelude to the all-encompassing thread you are planning to start soon. Take a deep breath and remember that so far, only the individual preferences of soldering versus crimping have been batted around. That is without getting into any depth yet on either method. Just think what the future holds when you have to broach these topics:
  • Earth and/or ground -- is there such a thing?
  • If ground is a valid concept, should it be positive or negative?
  • Dielectric grease -- Yes or No, and Why or Why not?
  • Points or Electronic Ignition -- which is right for you?
  • Where should I place the fuse(s) in my system? What rating? How many do I really need?
  • Should I have a kill switch? If yes, should it be normally open or normally closed?
  • How can I use relays, diodes, and LED lights with a postive earth system.

I admire your courage in taking this on. I am confident that you are up for the task. I think it will make the "sticky thread" of all sticky threads when it is done (it won't ever be really done). Like I said earlier . . .

Originally Posted By TR6Ray
That would be a very useful, and a very popular thread. I'd be grateful if you took the time to do it. You should expect some controversy along the way with some of the topics you mentioned, not the least of which is "how to properly solder". Remember that you spent at least a third of your time defending your theories and practices in your magneto thread. I think you prevailed in the end though.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644853
03/19/16 2:28 am
03/19/16 2:28 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By Magnetoman
Originally Posted By edunham
ratcheting crimping tools for bullet connectors from British Wiring. When I use it my connections look like the factory and don't pull apart
Not to say there's anything wrong with that crimping tool, but your connections can't "look like the factory" because the factory didn't use hexagonal crimping tools, but they did use solder.

Then you should look at more original Lucas harnesses certainly from the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's ... you'll look long and hard to find any soldered terminal, all the bullets are hex-crimped.

Originally Posted By Magnetoman

I would not have considered riding anyone's bike with wiring like this and a Boyer-Bransden MicroDigital e.i. John H will doubtless give me a hard time for posting it but, in my personal first-hand experience, the MD e.i. is particularly intolerant of anything but perfect wiring and connections. Fwiw, first I would've rewired it, then taken it for a test run to see if I'd solved the problem.

Regards,

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: John Healy] #644854
03/19/16 2:33 am
03/19/16 2:33 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,186
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Scotland
Hi John,

Originally Posted By John Healy
no one mentioned that the terminal should be sized to the wire. To me it is the first consideration whether you choose to solder or crimp. It is doubly important when crimping.

Ime, yes and no.

Yes for hex.-crimped bullets; it's difficult to get bullets sized even for 1 sq.mm. to stay on the very-slightly-smaller 14-32SWG-strand wire Lucas used in original harnesses (ime, it's difficult to get 'em to stay on 32/0.20 thinwall, frown but that's another story).

Otoh, the tabs that are crimped with the 'M'-shaped cut-out, with with separate translucent insulation, are rare for 14/0.30 and I've never seen 'em for 9/0.30. I use tabs for 28/0.30; with thinner wire, I strip about 1/2" insulation, twist the strands together and fold the result in half; I take care to crimp so that the 'tangs' from each side of the terminal are folded over about one half of the folded conductor. You will never, ever pull the wire out of a terminal crimped like that, something else will break first.

Regards,

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Stuart] #644856
03/19/16 2:54 am
03/19/16 2:54 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted By Stuart
Then you should look at more original Lucas harnesses certainly from the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's ... you'll look long and hard to find any soldered terminal, all the bullets are hex-crimped.
Fair enough. Earlier in the '60s, and in the '50s, they were soldered.

Originally Posted By Stuart
Fwiw, first I would've rewired it, then taken it for a test run to see if I'd solved the problem.
I see now my post might have been misread. The problematic magneto-replacer in Ireland was on an A10. The Vincent also was in Ireland but had nothing to do with the A10 I was riding. That turned out to be a design flaw that caused the electronics to abruptly cut out if the battery voltage dropped below some value that was at the borderline of where 6V batteries operated.

The Vincent's wiring was just too photogenic to pass by without capturing. It illustrates that someone who rides a bike worth ~$100k (it was at a Rally, so it was ridden) doesn't necessarily know how to wire a motorcycle. Hence why some people might see a need for a thread on the topic, even though some angels object.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: TR6Ray] #644858
03/19/16 3:06 am
03/19/16 3:06 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted By TR6Ray
Well, Magnetoman, it looks like this is turning into a nice prelude to the all-encompassing thread you are planning to start soon.
The angels have spoken:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=644857&#Post644857

Wait, wait, maybe it was the voice of the devil I heard...

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644875
03/19/16 8:01 am
03/19/16 8:01 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,461
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Excellent start, MMan---I think many Brit bikers will be extremely grateful to you when this thread is completed. As I said previously many of our number find the electrical bit of Brit bike restoration the most difficult.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644956
03/20/16 12:47 am
03/20/16 12:47 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,265
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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North Georgia, USA
Just for future reference...

John Healy at Coventry Spares in Boston sells all the correct Lucas colored wires and connectors.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: RF Whatley] #644988
03/20/16 11:07 am
03/20/16 11:07 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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U.S.
Originally Posted By RF Whatley
John Healy at Coventry Spares in Boston sells all the correct Lucas colored wires and connectors.
John, is this true? Do you stock all ~48 colors in several sizes?

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #644992
03/20/16 11:26 am
03/20/16 11:26 am
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 625
Denver CO
J
Jerry Roy Offline
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Jerry Roy  Offline
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J

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Posts: 625
Denver CO
And do you sell by the foot, rather than 8 metre rolls?

JR

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Jerry Roy] #644993
03/20/16 11:30 am
03/20/16 11:30 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,649
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Posts: 4,649
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Originally Posted By Jerry Roy
And do you sell by the foot, rather than 8 metre rolls?
To clarify, British Wiring sells by the meter. I decided to buy 8 m rolls, but I could have bought lengths of only 1 m if I had wanted to.

Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #645035
03/20/16 3:47 pm
03/20/16 3:47 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Offline

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Illinois, USA
And also just to clarify, Coventry Spares does not sell at the retail level!


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: Magnetoman] #645044
03/20/16 4:49 pm
03/20/16 4:49 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts


This Boyer unit was sent to me for warranty evaluation. I wonder if his wife missed the cookie tin. Notice the important detail where he used colored wire with a stripe.


Re: Ammeters, Voltmeters and Colored Wire [Re: John Healy] #645047
03/20/16 4:58 pm
03/20/16 4:58 pm
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,700
Pacific northwest
Q
quinten Offline
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quinten  Offline
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Pacific northwest
Originally Posted By John Healy


This Boyer unit was sent to me for warranty evaluation. I wonder if his wife missed the cookie tin. Notice the important detail where he used colored wire with a stripe.


So , how did you begin the evaluation , I mean , after you finished laughing ?

.

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