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A65 62' noise in primary #638517
02/04/16 3:07 pm
02/04/16 3:07 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Rokplo  Offline OP
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R
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
Hi !

My 62 a65 began making some noises in the primary a few weeks ago ... I ride 7000 miles with it last year, so i decided to bring it to a friend, who's an experienced mecanic on old brit bikes ...

He changed the clutch plates, rubbers, springs, checked the rotor clearance but ..... There is a lot of noise on the primary side, around the front of the engine. Tomorow, héll try to run the engine withe the rotor removed but He (and i) is afraid that it could be the main bearing .....

I suppose itīs a big job to change it, and i prepare myself for the worst ...

With your experience, how much time do you think it takes to change it ?
Can you tell me about the difficulty of doing it, and if there are some complicate/tricky operations ?

Thanks for your answers and advices ....

Last edited by Rokplo; 02/04/16 3:07 pm.

BSA A65 1962
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Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638521
02/04/16 3:46 pm
02/04/16 3:46 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,106
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Online content
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Sydney, Oz
It's probably the alternator rotor like Frank's recent thread.

If you do have to change the main bearing, it involves a complete engine strip and rebuild. If you have it apart anyway, measure everything, and at a bare minimum clean out the sludge trap.
You'll probably find a stack of things to replace while it's torn down.

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638522
02/04/16 3:51 pm
02/04/16 3:51 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
I hope itīs the rotor, I cross my fingers, we will know it tomorrow ..... Thanks for the answer

Last edited by Rokplo; 02/04/16 3:55 pm.

BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638525
02/04/16 4:13 pm
02/04/16 4:13 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
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Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
Gasp - itīs the bearing - my friend removed the rotor ,washer and seal, and sent me a pic : you see the bearing case cracked ....


BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638534
02/04/16 5:10 pm
02/04/16 5:10 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 977
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

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C.B.S  Online Content

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Lancaster, California
What kind of noise where you experiencing? Was it a "Knocking" sound, "Clacking" sound or "Rumble"? Can you upload a picture?

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638537
02/04/16 6:08 pm
02/04/16 6:08 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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R
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Posts: 36
Paris, France
It was a "crrr crrr crrr"


BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638538
02/04/16 6:10 pm
02/04/16 6:10 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
I try to find a place where to put the pic (not easy with my iPad)

Last edited by Rokplo; 02/04/16 6:15 pm.

BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638540
02/04/16 6:20 pm
02/04/16 6:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Posts: 36
Paris, France
Hope this works :




BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638560
02/04/16 10:15 pm
02/04/16 10:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 977
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

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Lancaster, California
Severe bearing failure. Do you know what Brand bearing this was? Either a defective bearing or stressed applied from the crank. I hope it didn't cause damage on the inside.

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638561
02/04/16 10:25 pm
02/04/16 10:25 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,420
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

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Lannis  Online Content

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Ouch!! Looks like the bearing outer race "spun" in the case? Probably going to be a case weld repair in this bike's future.

It's enough to put you RIGHT OFF the things isn't it?

Or it's a test of character. I hope you hang in there with it ....

Lannis


I'm like super lazy today. It's like normal lazy, but I'm wearing a cape.
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638566
02/04/16 10:55 pm
02/04/16 10:55 pm
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 75
Brooklyn, NY, USA
jholmes Offline
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Brooklyn, NY, USA
I had a bike with the same failure. The original ball cage came apart after many years (original bearing, I believe). Here is my take on this bottom end repair job:
1- Split cases, replace bearing with same type bearing, be it ball or roller. (Do not attempt to switch.)
2- Replace timing side bush and line bore to the new bearing.
3- Clean sludge trap, replace plug with hex key type (upgrade from slotted type).
4- Check rod big ends for wear, replace shells if necessary. Recommend replacement anyways since broken metal is rattling around.
5- Re-shim crank. There is a difference in process here between drive side ball and roller bearing setups.
6- Check main transmission bearing also (the roller bearing behind the clutch door). Replace if necessary prior to case assembly.
7- Assemble bottom end and cases.

Good luck. Cheers.


Cheers!
-Jason
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638590
02/05/16 3:44 am
02/05/16 3:44 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Rokplo  Offline OP
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Paris, France
Jholmes : are you sure that i need to replace the timing side bush ? When the problem occured, i did'nt have any suspect noise coming from the timing side, and the bike did not ride more tnan 2-3 miles with the bearing broken ....

I can decently suppose that the timing side bush did not suffer on such a short ride ?


BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638591
02/05/16 4:02 am
02/05/16 4:02 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,149
Scotland
kommando Online content
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The bush will not have suffered but unless its still at 1.5 thou clearance as the engine is apart then it is best to replace as it is this designs achilles heel.

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: kommando] #638650
02/05/16 1:50 pm
02/05/16 1:50 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 401
Cork Ireland
C
chaterlea25 Online content
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Cork Ireland
Hi,
Quote:
I can decently suppose that the timing side bush did not suffer on such a short ride ?


NO YOU CAN'T eek
Shrapnel from the broken bearing will in a few seconds travel all through the lubrication system
Also imagine the crank drive end moving in an elliptical pattern due to the broken bearing that would "barrel out" the plain TS bush
If the bottom end has to come apart I would replace every bearing in the unit (cam and idler bushes may be ok)
The oil pump will aslo have suffered damage eek

A big omission from the list of jobs posted to do to fix
is to "Remove and clean out the oil tank"

Assumptions are the mother of all fu*k ups !!!!

John

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638751
02/06/16 1:10 am
02/06/16 1:10 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,280
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Owego, NY, USA
I don't think it's a given that the timing side bush and oil pump are trashed. Nevertheless, as John so eloquently stated about assumptions, everything should be inspected and measured. The timing side bush should be measured at various points in and out - that is of course if you don't see damage in the form of scratching, gouging, etc., in which case measuring is moot.

Everything else suggested above, and also inspect the camshaft lobes and cam followers.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: chaterlea25] #638752
02/06/16 1:15 am
02/06/16 1:15 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,639
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Also remove & clean out the sludge trap.
While the crank is out get it nitrided ( heat treatment process ) which will increase the toughness of the crank no end.
Ditto on the timing side bush, it will have flogged out and even if this is only a tiny amount that bush is only just up to the job at the best of time so knocking 10% off the end will if nothing else drastically reduce the remaining service life of the bush so you will be pulling it down again to replace the bush.
The idea is to ride the bike so the fewer times you pull it down the better.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638797
02/06/16 12:23 pm
02/06/16 12:23 pm
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 75
Brooklyn, NY, USA
jholmes Offline
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Brooklyn, NY, USA
My suggestions stop with the bottom end assembly because there are myriad alterations and rabbit holes you can go down looking for other problems which may or may not need fixing from that point. I am in full agreement with kommando regarding the timing side bush, and that is why I included it in the suggestions. John (Chaterlea25) also makes a good point regarding the oil tank--clean the entire oil system thoroughly (including all oil channels within the crank and cases). Some of what would need to happen would be common sense if you have done any vintage bottom end work (per Mark Z: check all crank journals, etc). I will try to spare readers further details of reassembly and tuning here. Instead I would suggest that you can scour this forum for all its fine points--it has helped me many, many times.

My advice is to complete 1 through 7 with a competent machinist if you have the resources (time, energy, interest, community, and, yes, money), and thereafter see where you stand in the grand scheme of life and assess if you would like to either a) just get it back together and ride (I would recommend this take), or b) look for all manner of contentious design issues and ways to "enhance your experience." Whichever flavor you choose to spice with, good luck! Cheers.

Last edited by jholmes; 02/06/16 12:23 pm.

Cheers!
-Jason
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #638968
02/07/16 10:53 am
02/07/16 10:53 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
I have the chance to find a retired mecanic, specialized in bsa (he owns three a65 himself), he loves to work on theese engines, and will renew it totally for a symbolic price .... He told me that he will dismantle it all, and will measure everything that could be worn, and replace what needed - he seems to really know what he is talking about ... I bring him the bike tuesday ....

I have an oil filter fiited on the bike, and a magnetic cap under the engine, so i hope that most of the metal pieces are somewhere in it ....


BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #639035
02/07/16 6:36 pm
02/07/16 6:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,648
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Excellent, Bon Chance!

Last edited by gavin eisler; 02/07/16 8:50 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #640327
02/16/16 10:16 am
02/16/16 10:16 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
The engine has been opened, and the bad ball bearing removed ... All the pieces stayed in, nothing seems to have traveled in the oil circuit. For the moment, it seems that the timing side bush bearing has not been altered, so i just need to change that ball bearing. We are measuring everything to be sure of that. Note that the faulty bearing was UK made, not a crappy chineese one ....




BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #640343
02/16/16 12:21 pm
02/16/16 12:21 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 977
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

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If its the Original Hoffmann bearing I wouldn't be surprised. I think I see "FBC"? Fag Bearing Company.

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #640347
02/16/16 12:45 pm
02/16/16 12:45 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,177
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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New Jersey USA
1962 was obviously a bad year for bearings.
How disgusting--only lasting for 54 years.
What is the world coming to?
Suggest you claim under the warranty.
(Above is Brit humor --but realistically you cannot expect these things to last for ever).

Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #640500
02/17/16 5:26 pm
02/17/16 5:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,648
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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This might be why later twins got a roller bearing.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #642081
02/28/16 8:54 am
02/28/16 8:54 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 36
Paris, France
R
Rokplo Offline OP
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Paris, France
My A65 is back home, perfectly repaired, and i also changed to a 21 teeth pinion - it never worked better than now !


BSA A65 1962
Re: A65 62' noise in primary [Re: Rokplo] #642090
02/28/16 10:50 am
02/28/16 10:50 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,181
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Online content

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Santa Barbara, California
That's a great story of success! Thanks for the report. Did you ever post the motor number? Curious how early manufacture it might be, as I have not seen many of the first year '62 A65s still on the road! What are the chances today that you would happen to find someone who has the knowledge and the tools to do that work? It is good to hear that you worked through the process! have fun!


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