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Smokey T140 #634877
01/12/16 6:22 pm
01/12/16 6:22 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Posts: 49
Georgia
All,

A bit stumped on curing my 79 T140 from a nasty smoking problem. Motor was low compression and consuming oil, due for another rebuild. Crank ground, 40 over (JCC pistons, hastings rings), 150 grit bore. Head had new exhaust guides and valves installed. Fired up easily and smoked. Rode a bit to seat the rings...progressively more smoke, more on the primary side. At 500 miles, its really not useable, too foggy. Smokes heavily at start up and under throttle, lightly when idling warm, diminishes with higher engine temps.

As of yet, I have 140 psi compression across. Suspicious of the 300cc of oil in the sump every time I have drained, I replaced the oil pump with a four valve unit. No change. Tried a different pump I had sitting around, again, ineffective. Removed the external oil filter to rule it out. Nope. Installed a new OPRV spring. No change. Torqued the head. You guessed it, no change. Return oil flow looks strong. Please help me narrow this down! Second rebuild on this motor, third I have done on a Triumph unit twin. Never had this outcome!

Regards,
Brian-


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
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Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634884
01/12/16 7:25 pm
01/12/16 7:25 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,776
ohio
shel Online content
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shel  Online Content
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ohio
Breather hose kinked or blocked?


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: shel] #634886
01/12/16 7:31 pm
01/12/16 7:31 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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Georgia
No, the breather hose is clear and unkinked. Has regular pulses of air exiting. Also, not dripping oil.


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634902
01/12/16 9:57 pm
01/12/16 9:57 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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TR6Ray  Online Content

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Illinois, USA
Did you install the exhaust valve guides, or were you there when it happened? If they were driven out from the combustion chamber side, there is a good chance that the guide bore in the head was scored. That would let a lot of oil into the combustion chamber and cause all the smoke you are seeing.

Here are some other threads to read: HERE, and HERE , and HERE.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: TR6Ray] #634904
01/12/16 10:18 pm
01/12/16 10:18 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Georgia
Guides were done by a reputable shop that does a lot of work on British bikes in Atlanta Georgia. Sadly, I was not present when it was done. Same guy did all the guides on my TR6 and it is fine. Worth pulling the head and taking it back for inspection? The sump having 300CC of oil seems way too high by a factor of two. Have searched for wet sumping causes and read up but the usual remedies have been ineffective. Really appreciate the insight!


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634918
01/13/16 12:12 am
01/13/16 12:12 am
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 944
New Zealand
Excalibur Online content
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Excalibur  Online Content
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New Zealand
Any pics of the bike so we can see what we're battling with? Anything particularly non stock/standard about the bike? Any engine breather mods or additional breathers?

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634920
01/13/16 12:35 am
01/13/16 12:35 am
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By T140EBrian
Worth pulling the head and taking it back for inspection?

Brian,

I'm not experienced enough to know -- it just threw a red flag when you mentioned changing the exhaust valve guides. I remember lots of threads on here dealing with scored valve guide bores. However, I think oil smoke caused by that problem seems to start a minute or two after starting the engine, not imediately at startup. Has that been your experience?

Also on a T140 there is also the issue of the head studs. You said you did a rebore. There could be a reassembly issue. You could search for "'tit' down w/ball bearing and bottomed out", or just go HERE or HERE and read about it.



'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634932
01/13/16 7:43 am
01/13/16 7:43 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,867
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Online content
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Mike Baker  Online Content
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Asheville, NC
Seems a lot of oil in the sump to me as well. Have you checked to make sure the pickup tube has not come loose? Also, re: Hastings- I've gotten 2 sets of them that were bad. This was a while ago and I've not heard of anyone else having problems but it can happen.

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Mike Baker] #634935
01/13/16 8:01 am
01/13/16 8:01 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Posts: 49
Georgia
Bike is stock other than a Pazon and Mikuni carbs, has been that way for 20K. No additional or modified breathing bodges. Pick up tube? Is this part the oil feed and return pipe assembly that bolts on just forward of the transmission tear drop shaped cover?


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634975
01/13/16 2:57 pm
01/13/16 2:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 723
Edgewater, Md
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Blown Income Online content

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Posts: 723
Edgewater, Md
Did you anneal the HG prior installing? Maybe the heads warped some?


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634979
01/13/16 3:18 pm
01/13/16 3:18 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Online content

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Originally Posted By T140EBrian
Pick up tube? Is this part the oil feed and return pipe assembly that bolts on just forward of the transmission tear drop shaped cover?


No, that's the oil junction block. He's talking about the scavenge tube that's in the crankcase. You'll see it when you remove the crankcase filter/sump plug.

Did you install the oil pump gasket the right-way 'round?


Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: JubeePrince] #634982
01/13/16 4:01 pm
01/13/16 4:01 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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TR6Ray  Online Content

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Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
And while you are considering the oil junction block, that gasket could cause a wet sump if it is installed wrong, though it would be hard to put it on wrong in the first place. Just sayin'.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #634989
01/13/16 5:07 pm
01/13/16 5:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 31
Cornwall UK
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Boo Offline
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Cornwall UK
I have a similar problem with a Tiger 90. New everything all done by me (a qualified) mechanic with too many years experience with these things, and the guides were installed by an even more experienced mechanic and machinist.
On start up it smokes like a train filling the garage with DENSE smoke. when it warms up it only smokes slightly. It is so bad thatn it chucks oil out of the exhaust and runs along the fins of the head.
I have checked EVERYTHING, If it were the guides it would smoke mostly on overrun and not continuously, if it were rings then why has it got good compression?
I have checked the oil pump for leaks, ie sucking in air, nothing, the oil is returning with plenty of pressure. I did measure the sump oil at I think 150 odd cc's left it and checked it the following weekend and no more oil had leaked down to the sump.
It cannot be the valve guides as there is no way that much oil is getting into the rocker box. I even tried it with the oil supply to the rockers disconnected to no avail.
The only thing I can now think of is, are the oil rings working? There is plenty of compression but who knows about the oil rings? Very unlikely I know but what else is there?
I hope this may give you some ideas and I hope something here works. I would love to know what the hell it is, it's driving me nuts. So I can only sympathise with you.
Good Luck , Let me know how it goes,

Boo.

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Boo] #635001
01/13/16 6:19 pm
01/13/16 6:19 pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 944
New Zealand
Excalibur Online content
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New Zealand
Just checking, did you followed this dry ring installation procedure ??

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Excalibur] #635027
01/13/16 9:08 pm
01/13/16 9:08 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Posts: 49
Georgia
Head gasket was annealed. Crank scavenge oil pipe is present and not moving, looks to be long enough to properly fit into the sump plug. Measuring from the outside of the case where the sump plug threads to the tip of the tube, 27MM.

The oil junction gasket is on with the correct orientation as is the oil pump gasket. Have done the oil pump gasket the wrong way before. Not good. I washed the bores in warm soapy water until a clean white towel could be pulled through with no evidence of grey grit. Rings were installed on pistons and oiled the bores VERY lightly (as in five or six drops of motor oil per side, then wiped off the majority of that with a towel. Rings installed dry. Pulled the the cylinders 200 miles ago to confirm that the rings were oriented correctly (not upside down, staggered pattern). They were correct and piston tops were rather oily.

Saturday, will pull the oil junction pipe and blow air through oil return lines. Rings and guides could be the culprit. That said, inclined to tackle the confirmed problem....the pool of oil in the crankcase. Perhaps, once that is rectified, the smoke will stop. If not, well, onto the top end. I really appreciate the time people have taken to offer advice. Thanks. Definitely will keep you updated on how this unfolds.


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #635122
01/14/16 1:30 pm
01/14/16 1:30 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Online content

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Can't help but notice that you have dry-frame Triumphs.

You didn't put an oil seal behind the engine sprocket by chance did you?? crazy

I know, I know, but it reminds me of that time I called the IT help desk because my computer wouldn't boot up and the first question they asked is "is it plugged in"? laughing

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: JubeePrince] #635127
01/14/16 3:06 pm
01/14/16 3:06 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,531
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted By JubeePrince

I know, I know, but it reminds me of that time I called the IT help desk because my computer wouldn't boot up and the first question they asked is "is it plugged in"? laughing


with me, i lose the net and call up, and they ask, did you try booting the modem . . .

i've made an idiot of myself twice so far with this service.


live every day.
die only once.
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Excalibur] #635143
01/14/16 4:50 pm
01/14/16 4:50 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 31
Cornwall UK
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Cornwall UK
Not yet. It is only a long shot and the only one I can think of that I have not yet done. I am scraping the bottom of the barrel of desperation just like you.
Originally Posted By Excalibur
Just checking, did you followed this dry ring installation procedure ??

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Boo] #635152
01/14/16 6:16 pm
01/14/16 6:16 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Georgia
Crank seal was not installed. I remember looking at the opening, wondering, looking up info and not doing it. Good idea though!


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #635154
01/14/16 6:28 pm
01/14/16 6:28 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,561
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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JubeePrince,

What's the story on those wet frame T140's like yours where they go crazy and leak oil and blow head gaskets and smoke and spit and other nasty stuff if you don't spotface the washer surfaces on the cylinder head. Could that be his issue here?

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: TR6Ray] #635217
01/15/16 8:42 am
01/15/16 8:42 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
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JubeePrince Online content

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Originally Posted By TR6Ray
JubeePrince,

What's the story on those wet frame T140's like yours where they go crazy and leak oil and blow head gaskets and smoke and spit and other nasty stuff if you don't spotface the washer surfaces on the cylinder head. Could that be his issue here?

Ray


That would account for the smoking Ray, but not the excess oil in the crankcase.

Two possibilities?

1) Two separate and distinct issues. Burning oil in the cylinders and excess oil in the crankcase/sump.

2) Excess oil in the crankcase/sump pushing its way past the rings and causing the smoking.

Maybe the crank oil seal is inverted/torn/bad? Would this dump enough oil in the crankcase to keep the scavenge side from keeping up? I dunno....just thinking out loud.

Brian -

Did you do the modification of the larger washers under the four inner headbolt/sockets?


Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: JubeePrince] #635226
01/15/16 9:46 am
01/15/16 9:46 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 49
Georgia
T140EBrian Offline OP
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T140EBrian  Offline OP
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Georgia
No, I have not done the larger washers under the inner head bolts. Guess what I will be doing Saturday! Worth a try. Thanks!


79 T140E
67 Tr6
09 FLHTC
73 KAWA H1 Whoa!
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #635233
01/15/16 10:10 am
01/15/16 10:10 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,142
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Even if the crank oil seal is torn to pieces it can only dump into the crankcase the output of the supply pump as a maximum.
The return side pump has twice this capacity so should be able to cope with it with some to spare.
HTH

Re: Smokey T140 [Re: T140EBrian] #635257
01/15/16 1:13 pm
01/15/16 1:13 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
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JubeePrince Online content

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Originally Posted By T140EBrian
No, I have not done the larger washers under the inner head bolts. Guess what I will be doing Saturday! Worth a try. Thanks!

You may want to spot-face the divots before you re-assemble(assuming deformation). If the alloy is deformed under the larger washer, you'll be hard-pressed to get an oil-tight seal:

My head before .

My head after .

Cheers,

Steve

Last edited by JubeePrince; 01/15/16 1:16 pm. Reason: clarity

'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Smokey T140 [Re: Tridentman] #635258
01/15/16 1:21 pm
01/15/16 1:21 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By Tridentman
Even if the crank oil seal is torn to pieces it can only dump into the crankcase the output of the supply pump as a maximum.
The return side pump has twice this capacity so should be able to cope with it with some to spare.
HTH


Thanks for the clarification, T-man. This is why I think out loud: so I can be corrected! beerchug

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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