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#627125 - 11/24/15 5:02 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
Joined: May 2013
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Can I just add that your handle seems to sum you up, the BSA Barracuda was also under developed and self destructive wink

Last edited by Allan Gill; 11/24/15 5:03 pm.

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#627145 - 11/24/15 7:06 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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NickL Online content
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Aus
OK chaps it's time to 'take the bricks out of your handbags'.

My 2c (for what it's worth!) Beezer did eventually sort the pumps out and ended up with an iron one, that in my opinion is the best way to go with an oil pump.
Several bike shops certainly in the UK in times of old, had iron pump bodies made by local firms and sold them with beezer internals, i have such a device on my old outfit. This practise unfortunately has ceased so the only new replacement option is now an SRM pump, which is a high quality device.

The manufacturing of a gearotor type pump by an individual is commendable, i love the idea of making high quality replacement parts for these old heaps, although i question the reasoning for such a device. As someone who has done many mods on these motors including end feeds, offset cranks, big bore kits etc. I feel that the more obvious approach to the bottom end oiling system is to fit an end feed into the crank. The use of a ball race or a needle bearing obviates the need for a pump with any larger capacity and follows the thinking of other manufactures of twins. As for the tacho spindle not lining up, who cares? fit an electronic tacho, they are better anyway.
If you do proceed with this project, i for one would be interested to see if it increased the longevity of the bike. Attention should be payed to the relief valve as it cannot relive sufficient quantity at present when cold and will be putting undue stress on the pump mounting and wear on the drive setup. Without some modifications my own bike with the standard iron pump will see over 140psi when cold, that is with a TS bush.

Personally i would only undertake such a project if my own experience had led/forced me to it, this has never been the case with the pump, but others may disagree, if we were all the same wouldn't it be friggin boring eh?

Have fun.



#627181 - 11/24/15 11:08 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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htown Online content
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htown  Online Content
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Magnolia, TX
Norton Commandos have a rotary gear pump that is very similar in design to a BSA pump. I haven't checked the gear sizes, but eyeball calibration says they are about the same and I would guess the through put volume is similar. Other than wet-sumping, which occurs with wear, there are hardly any complaints on the Norton forums about oil pumps. The Norton pumps are all cast iron though.

Last edited by htown; 11/24/15 11:12 pm.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
#627190 - 11/25/15 12:23 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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DMadigan Offline
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All the gearotor pumps that I have seen in Japanese motors have aluminum (usually cast) housings and seem to stand up well.
Obviously an iron housing is better for distortion that the zinc alloy used previously but first off, these motors were not intended to be race engines, rather plunking along back and forth to work type motors. Second, how many people have had one of these unmolested from new and the oil pump was the first thing that needed replacement? How many people have inch-pound torque wrenches and measured the assembly bolt torques when assembling or use a torque wrench when bolting it to the motor? It sits on a gasket which compresses and can cause uneven seat pressure.
The A75 motor was designed with larger 13 tooth gears rather than the 14 tooth A65 gears. The volume between the teeth on the A75 with 5 plain bearings is 0.25858 in^3 and the A65 with 3 plain bearings is 0.04559 in^3. The A75 pump scaled up from the A65 would have been 0.07598 in^3 (1.667 times) but it is 5.67 times more volume. I do no know how the A65 pump compares with the A10.
There is no more room for larger gears. Using a gearotor is for convenience. It will fit in the space available with more displacement and the only drawback is the tach drive not aligning with the inner case.
It could also be a 6 piston rotary plunger pump, 3 feed and 3 return in a rotating drum. A swashplate moves the pistons back and forth as it rotates. Higher cost though.
Putting in a modified XS650 crank solves even more problems: a centre bearing on the crank, all needle/roller ball bearings (spray lubrication), steel rods, shorter cylinder and readily available 80mm pistons to make it a 750cc.

#627202 - 11/25/15 3:55 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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NickL Online content
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C'mon David, fitting an XS crank is hardly a viable proposition for the average bloke. whereas an end feed conversion is.



#627206 - 11/25/15 4:49 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: NickL]  
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Triless Online content
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OZ
Fair enough point, NickL.
DM, Matchless vertical twins had a centre main bearing for the crank, and two oil pumps! Yes, yes, I know, but these machines should be judged in the context of their era, not by misinformed legend! But I think your Eton type pump is brilliant.I think the Japanese oil pumps owe their long service lives to proper oil filtration.
I honestly believe there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the initial design and theory of the BSA twin oil pump. I think the issue was cost cutting with the pump body material, lack of efficient oil filtration, and " knowledgeable" owners!
A bit off topic, and a totally different type of pump, but during the '50's, Triumph tried different materials for their pump bodies ( in the interests of cost cutting, I reckon ) .Initially, the bodies were brass, then as mentioned, they tried both cast iron and alloy. But they soon reverted back to brass!
What a pity that BSA didn't use cast iron until the very end!
Incidentally, I do own an inch/ pound tension wrench. Aren't I lucky!

Last edited by Triless; 11/25/15 5:07 am.
#627207 - 11/25/15 5:03 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: ]  
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JER.Hill Online content
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi

Have been away for a few days, come-on kids behave. I have cut out the uninteresting bits.

Getting back to the pump, in my earlier post I mentioned about a test jig.

[/quote] I have no intention of putting " the gearotor pump into market " (sic). This is an engineering challenge to me and I find it interesting to undertake such projects.

If you are only to build one for your self, then just go ahead, you don't actually have to prove it other than to your self so no worries.

Look forward to hearing how you get on.

John

#627248 - 11/25/15 2:25 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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DMadigan Offline
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Perhaps I should have used one of those ;^) characters. But really, is welding up the inner case, machining the crank and case for a needle bearing and oil seal and drilling the crank within the average bloke's capabilities?
Another way around the pump volume and distortion problems are to reorient the pump with the shaft parallel to the crank and use a pair of spur gears for drive. Due to space limitations the gears would be around 14:35 or 2.5:1 instead of the 3:1 of the worm drive. Easier to machine since it does not need the 3D cutting around the worm to clear the timing gear.

#627285 - 11/25/15 7:23 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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NickL Online content
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I don't weld the case, they always distort. all thats needed is a lathe for drilling the crank and making up an end block for the seal. A mill is needed to bore and face the case for the needle race. Other than that it's just drilling and tapping.

Rather than all the bother with an XS crank, just fit one of John Hills 80mm bore kits with a Nourish 90mm EN40 crank, gives you about 920cc and a bit of a weapon.



#627311 - 11/26/15 12:41 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: NickL]  
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DavidP Offline
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Originally Posted By NickL

My 2c (for what it's worth!) Beezer did eventually sort the pumps out and ended up with an iron one, that in my opinion is the best way to go with an oil pump.

Am I wrong in thinking that the same pump was cast iron on A10's?
Crap metal was a cost saving measure. I have a few of them around, all have one spot where they hang. Probably from over tightening, just like carbs made from the same crap metal.
Took BSA how many warranty repairs, and years, to figure this out and revert to proper metal?
And we revere them why?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#627313 - 11/26/15 12:48 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: DMadigan]  
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DavidP Offline
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Originally Posted By DMadigan
How many people have inch-pound torque wrenches and measured the assembly bolt torques when assembling or use a torque wrench when bolting it to the motor?

Proudly guilty as charged. I have both beam and click type torque wrenches in pound-inch increments. But, I work in QC, something absent from BSA.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#627314 - 11/26/15 12:50 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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DavidP Offline
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Sadly the first department to get cut from a failing company is quality control.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#627315 - 11/26/15 12:55 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: DMadigan]  
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DavidP Offline
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Originally Posted By DMadigan

Another way around the pump volume and distortion problems are to reorient the pump with the shaft parallel to the crank and use a pair of spur gears for drive.

You've been studying Tridents, haven't you. grin


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#627634 - 11/28/15 1:42 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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DMadigan Offline
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Total theoretical volume of the pressure side per revolution of the pump. The teeth do not fully mesh to the bottom of the pocket so there is unswept volume. Also does not account for leakage past the tips or sides of the teeth.
The Machinery Handbook has the formulas and charts needed to calculate required flow rate for journal bearings.

#627666 - 11/28/15 10:59 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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Adam M. Online content
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Adam M.  Online Content
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How would making existing pump spinning faster work ?
This was a Norton idea.
This pump spins awfully slow during idle, lets say 300 rpm when I keep my idle around 800 / 1000 rpm.
My oil light blinks when idle is slower than 800 rpm, but all is well above it.
This engine has around 20 k miles now.

Last edited by Adam M.; 11/28/15 11:00 am.
#627700 - 11/28/15 2:15 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
When Norton went to pressure fed rockers they kept the pump the same but went from a 3 start to 6 start crank/pump gear combo to drive it, this doubled its speed relative to the engine revs and hence its output until the pressure relief valve kicked in.

In a B44 as it has a roller big end the feed gears are thinner than on the B25, so another option is to thicken up the body and the feed gears.

#627711 - 11/28/15 4:08 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: Ignoramus]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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i think i'd feel better if it was me that had a design life of over 20 years. screw the bikes.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#627758 - 11/28/15 7:22 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: Adam M.]  
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



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Posts: 4,953
Stone Creek OH USA
Originally Posted By Adam M.
How would making existing pump spinning faster work ?
This was a Norton idea.


The standard A65 oil feed to the pump is a rather tortured path. The pump "inlet condition" quite simply, sucks. You already are dealing with some cavitation issues at high RPM. Spinning the pump faster will make the "inlet condition" worse.

I can't speak to the inlet path on the Norton, hopefully not as crappy as the BSA inlet path...

Last edited by Rich B; 11/28/15 7:23 pm.

Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#627762 - 11/28/15 7:28 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: DavidP]  
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



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Stone Creek OH USA
Originally Posted By DavidP
Originally Posted By NickL

My 2c (for what it's worth!) Beezer did eventually sort the pumps out and ended up with an iron one, that in my opinion is the best way to go with an oil pump.

Am I wrong in thinking that the same pump was cast iron on A10's


Yea, you are wrong for thinking the A10's had an iron pump. Same material in the body as the unit twins until the change to cast iron. Actually, gear size was the same in A10's as unit twins until roughly 69.........


Last edited by Rich B; 11/29/15 1:30 pm.

Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#627890 - 11/29/15 3:07 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
You really haven't read a thing have you. Read it again. You will notice that I asked for evidence that the original pump wasn't up to the job. The only insult I gave was that (and after being repetedily insulted ) his alias suits his personality.

If you wonder why I keep pressing the point, it's simple. There are people who visit the forum who are either new to or have little knowledge on these bikes. Telling them that the stock oil pump that worked fine for the last 40 years plus is going to cause engine failure is not going to help gain enthusiasts.

D.madigan wrote about this new pump some time ago. Not once did he try to frighten anyone by saying the original equipment is shit. There are also a lot of people that use their old A10's or A65's and ride them all over the world, on that shitty old oil pump that is going to cause the motor to blow up (aparamtly) so regardless of who you are, if your going to give such a bold statement then be prepared to back it up with some evidence.

It's not a lot to ask, if the statement is true in the first place. Now you do what you want with your own bike, I really couldn't give a toss. And I do support inovation! You may also be interested to know that my bikes are stock and that I do find that some of the original parts could have been improved at the time. However if the machining work on many of these things ( like the TS journal and crank regrinds) are done properly then your chances of failure are vastly limited. Compared to modern cars and bikes, that suffer the same punishment and lack of oil changes as many of these bikes did back in the day suffer a similar fate. If they didn't I wouldn't be in a job wink


beerchug
#627895 - 11/29/15 3:22 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Lmao. What a sad git.

Cheers Kommando


beerchug
#627915 - 11/29/15 4:36 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
And all evidence he was here.

Shame, I was beginning to like him laughing


beerchug
#627923 - 11/29/15 5:03 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
Followed Les's suggestion and deleted my comments.

#627972 - 11/29/15 7:31 pm Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I will follow suit, but for now I need to get some sleep early start and a long day tomorrow


beerchug
#628020 - 11/30/15 12:38 am Re: A65 timing side mods [Re: RGSROB]  
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NickL Online content
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NickL  Online Content
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Blimey, this seems to have got a few reactions eh?

Think i'll go out and cane the living daylights out of my old T'bolt as the sun's shining, it's 36 degs and i'm told by experts the old heap is going to blow up soon with it's mileage and continued abuse.

Really gents, with the exception of the few blokes here who make a living from building these motors, there is no need to take all this so bloody seriously, it's supposed to all about having fun and a laugh owning an old bike. People have told me i'm an obnoxious old git for years, I still maintain that i'm much worse than that! Most of them don't even realise their being 'wound up' Just sit back and laugh at it all, life is too short!



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