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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623818
10/31/15 2:55 pm
10/31/15 2:55 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content
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Quote:
How fast would Tim Joyce's bike run in LSR? 80 HP in a smaller faired bike would be in the 160's MPH or so depending on track length.


A lot of Tim's success is with his ability!! One doesn't need as much hp when one doesn't shut the engine down going into the corners! While in the old days before MAP came on the scene Tim ran a 500 (head done by Dana Johnson and transmission modified as a 5 speed). Tim was dominant in the AHRMA Sportsman 500 class. He then would take the same bike and run it in the 750 class where he won MORE than his fair share of trophies. It is difficult to equate success in Road Racing and Land Speed racing.

There was a comment in the thread about having to shorten the push rods. Any variation in push rod length is dependent upon base circle diameter, not cam lift.


Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623828
10/31/15 5:43 pm
10/31/15 5:43 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,568
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
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ca, us
Allen - 1.25" x 2 = 2.5"? Roller rockers will not buy much unless the roller is itself on rolling elements. If it is sliding on a pin the difference is the surface speed and the solid cam follower is likely to get more oil than a pin inside a roller.
The cam follower radius has to be matched to the cam so the full length of the face is used. Otherwise you loose dwell.
John, the pushrod length also depends upon the valve length too, yes? Pre T160 Triples have a long stem above the keeper so there is a lot of room for adjustment of the rocker angle there. On a triple, changing from the stock 5/16" stem valve to a 7mm is equivalent to shortening the 5/16" stem over 0.5". A good weight saving there.
Kevin - Looking at the bottom view of the tappets, any rotation is going to be controlled at the furthest point from the centre which is the corners in the centre of the tapper blocks so the whole section outboard of this is useless.

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623833
10/31/15 6:23 pm
10/31/15 6:23 pm
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,459
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I see your points on the follower radius determining the duration (dwell) of the cam. It is indeed a large can of worms.

Where is my drawing board?

Edit:
That first picture of the tappet block in the cylinder base... It appears that the block is not sitting square to the base flange.
Is that designed in or is it a flaw?

I ask because if that block needs to be 90^ to the flange it will change the modifications you need to do. In fact it would change the valve timing, wouldn't it?

When I watched the posted videos last night (assembling the vintage engines at the factory) it is quite easy to spot all the subtle reasons for these to be so far apart from true. Even torquing parts with "T" bars, and no fixtures to hold the engines solid.

Now add 40 plus years of running out of true... Large can of worms indeed.

Last edited by Zombie; 10/31/15 6:31 pm.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: DMadigan] #623841
10/31/15 6:45 pm
10/31/15 6:45 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted By Blown Income

My new Stroker A65 has a complete factory frame and swing arm, yes I have added fairing mounts and such, basically anything changed from the factory appearance moves you to a minimum of the modified class.

Hopefully us Beezers will give you Triumph guys a run for your money next season.


your machines are depressing because they make the others look like woodshed beaters even before you start them. You could at least spill some gasoline on the float bowls sometime.

I have to relieve the ears on both guide blocks before I can even turn either cam. Once I do that I can put in the lifters and see how much less clearance there is available than the measured cam lift. That and some running thousandths (three, maybe?) will be what needs to come out of the assembly.


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die only once.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: DMadigan] #623848
10/31/15 7:08 pm
10/31/15 7:08 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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Originally Posted By DMadigan

Kevin - Looking at the bottom view of the tappets, any rotation is going to be controlled at the furthest point from the centre which is the corners in the centre of the tapper blocks so the whole section outboard of this is useless.


we're still looking at that lifter foot surface area to spread spring tension against the cam lobe, though, aren't we? the less metal the higher the pressure?

i think hillbilly was saying to keep the same contact area and relieve the back of the lifter foot


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623868
10/31/15 8:13 pm
10/31/15 8:13 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,568
ca, us
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DMadigan Online content
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I meant the rotational guiding of the tappets in the block. Since the tappets hang outside the block it will be the inside corner that will hit when it rotates. Another way you can keep the tappets from rotating without the tappet block getting in the way is by putting a link across the crank side of the tappets such as these:
http://www.crower.com/lifters/roller.html?cat=425

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623876
10/31/15 10:38 pm
10/31/15 10:38 pm
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Posts: 1,459
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Not to toss this into outer space but how about slotting the blocks, and cutting the tabs off completely.

I think flat stock bung welded into the tappet stems, and machined slots in the blocks or guides might kill several birds with one stone. It couldn't cost much, and it sure would make for a solid tappet system.

Just a thought.


Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Zombie] #623887
11/01/15 3:01 am
11/01/15 3:01 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted By Zombie

That first picture of the tappet block in the cylinder base... It appears that the block is not sitting square to the base flange.
Is that designed in or is it a flaw?


yes it was designed in and yes it is an annoying flaw.

it's how you keep the camshaft outboard of the crank and then have the rocker and valve assemblies tucked in closer to the cylinder centerlines. the triumph solution.

norton and bsa solved the problem differently, but then again it is nice to be able to time the triumph cams separately.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623899
11/01/15 9:24 am
11/01/15 9:24 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 720
Edgewater, Md
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Originally Posted By kevin
Originally Posted By Blown Income

My new Stroker A65 has a complete factory frame and swing arm, yes I have added fairing mounts and such, basically anything changed from the factory appearance moves you to a minimum of the modified class.

Hopefully us Beezers will give you Triumph guys a run for your money next season.


your machines are depressing because they make the others look like woodshed beaters even before you start them. You could at least spill some gasoline on the float bowls sometime.

I have to relieve the ears on both guide blocks before I can even turn either cam. Once I do that I can put in the lifters and see how much less clearance there is available than the measured cam lift. That and some running thousandths (three, maybe?) will be what needs to come out of the assembly.


Kevin, I will take that as a compliment but I wouldn't call the others woodshed beaters. I do have an OCD problem when putting any of these old bikes together.The A10 has been together for 11yrs now and the powder coated frame does show the wear and tear and the lower portion of the fairing on the A65 has battle damage now as I DROPPED it at the sept. meet mad


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Blown Income] #623921
11/01/15 1:50 pm
11/01/15 1:50 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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fefsa
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ohio, usa
ouch

i hate doing that


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die only once.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #623932
11/01/15 4:36 pm
11/01/15 4:36 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content
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Dave the reference to the push rods and base circle, was the comment about having to change the push rod length after modifying the tappet guide block. Yes there are other factors at play...

It was Big D that raises the intake tract so it cuts through the bottom of the inlet rocker box. You can see it where they welded the inlet port onto the head. You do what you have to do to raise those ports.

Map and Big D are pretty fierce competitors - Until they fell out, Tim worked almost exclusively with MAP.

Kevin get a hold of an old tappet guide block and take a little more than 0.001" from the diameter. The idea is to get it so you can slide it into the cylinder by hand. Then you can slide the tappet guide block up and down in the cylinder using it as a visual guide to see just home much you need to alter the tappet guide block. I would remove as little from the ears as possible! It think part of your solution is going to be raising the tappet guide block a bit.

Get a hold of Art Stapleton at ACS in New Jersey. He has been using very high lift cams for many years and has some practical solutions. He has had some very good luck with ovate beehive springs. He was very good friends with the late Kenny Augustine. Tell him I told you to call (pm me and I will give you his number).

Making the groove in the tappet block deeper is a straight forward operation. Just remember the 45 cut at the bottom of the cut of the ears. Small detail, but it's important. I think I still have the cutter we used to make tappet guide blocks set aside here that has the 45 bevel used to make this cut.


Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624135
11/03/15 2:51 pm
11/03/15 2:51 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

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john, while you were submitting that post, i was down at the shop filing down the ears on my guide blocks.

i can't make the annoyed emoticon appear here, but it should.

i took off just enough to allow the cams to rotate with about 0.005-0.008 clearance, so that i could see what might need to be removed from the inner recess or from the face of the tappets themselves. but i have some more guide blocks and tappets coming from eBay, so by the time this is over i'll have enough trot line weights for a whole summer of fishing.

if i raise the guide blocks by using shims, i will still run into the bottom of the cylinder flange before i can go all that much higher. so i'll have to come up with something. but at least dave madigan has adjustable T120 pushrod tubes, so that particular headache can easily be solved. i've done some measuring this morning.

thank you for the recommendation to art stapleton. i will call him and see what he can tell me.

Last edited by kevin; 11/03/15 4:14 pm.

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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624146
11/03/15 3:46 pm
11/03/15 3:46 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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fefsa
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so here is where i am. clearances are easy to measure just by sticking a feeler gauge in between the cam and the lifter, and seeing how much i can put in before it rubs. have checked only the right side, because i can take that tappet in and out without undoing the jugs. obviously both sides need to be checked. the setup is easy, using a new pushrod, here on the exhaust side:



with the tappet in, and seated on the base circle of the megacycle cam, there is less than 0.001-inch deviation --none measureable, in fact, literally-- as i rotate the cam back and forth a few degrees. nice work on the cam, clearly. i have no complaints on megacycle's work:



with the cam and the exhaust lifter installed, i could get only 0.353" out of the nominal 0.375" lift before the top of the lifter hit the recess in the tappet guide block. so i took the lifter out and put it in upside down to use for a measuring tool:



i was looking for just a difference between clearance at base circle and clearance at cam nose, and the reversed lifter makes this easy. instead of the pushrod, i took a piece of soft copper wire and hollowed out the top in the drill press and pointed the bottom on the grinder. crude, but it varies less than 0.001" through the full lift of the cam, even when rotated on an off-center drillway in the exhaust tappet:







^^^it's really straighter than that, but the wide angle lens on my telephone makes it look curved. didn't realize until just now how much longer it was than necessary.

anyway, using this set up, the exhaust side cam lift is a genuine 0.373 inches, a bit less than the advertized 0.375. since the exhaust tappet hits the recess in the guide block at 0.353-inches, i obviously need to come up with 0.022-inches here, not counting a few thousandths for running clearance.

on the intake side, the cam rotated clearly with 0.002 clearance. the actual lift of the intake side was 0.371", again less than the advertized 0.375", but close enough for my level of skill.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624150
11/03/15 4:12 pm
11/03/15 4:12 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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fefsa
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so at this point, i know i have 0.002-inches of clearance between tappet and guide block on the intake cam, at a full lift of 0.371 inches. a bit less than i'm comfortable with.

on the exhaust side, i have a measured cam lift of 0.373 inches, but only 0.353 inches of clearance above the tappet top before it hits. an unhappiness level of 0.020 inches.

so how much can i trim the exhaust guide block? john healy has pointed out the 45-degree fillet at the insides of the tappet guide block. putting a straight edge in there and carefully just missing the 45-degree fillet gives me a gap i can measure with a feeler gauge:



i don't have enough hands to show the feeler gauge in there, but no matter. when all was said and done, i could set the straight edge in the recess on the exhaust side, just missing the 45-degree fillet, and determine that i could fit in both a 0.024 and a 0.003 feeler gauge blade together, total of 0.027 inches.

0.028 would not go.

on the intake side, i need to find 0.001 inches to get a running clearance of 0.003 inches. just a light skim of the tappet guide block will do that, but again i need to retain the fillet.

on the exhaust side, i need to find 0.020 + 0.003 inches, so it seems i can get that by trimming the recess in the stock tappet guide block by 0.023 inches out of the available 0.027 inches. doable, so long as i can retain the 45-degree fillet in the recess.

in other words, i don't need to trim either intake or exhaust tappets to get a running clearance of 0.003 inches with this cam, basing my estimates on these tappets in these positions.

my refaced tappets actually vary in length by a bit, so i need to look at just how long they are.

but i am out of time today and have to crash.


Last edited by kevin; 11/03/15 4:38 pm.

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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624154
11/03/15 4:40 pm
11/03/15 4:40 pm
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
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Is there any real advantage in modifying the tappet block vs, modifying the tappet?

It seems to me the amount/style of machine work is roughly the same.
I ask because those blocks look rather fragile to begin with, at least compared to the rather stout looking tappets themselves.

My next question is, would there be an advantage in shortening the the push rod, and adding a cap to the valve to sort of split the difference in rocker geometry? In effect raising the valve stem 1/2 of the new lift distance, and shortening the push rod the same 1/2.
I realize it is more work but I wonder if there is a benefit in reliability, and rpm.

This is very interesting to me, and I would like to learn as much as I can thru this process. I also realize some of my thoughts may be hair brained schemes but they are just thoughts... The coyote can only catch the road runner if he keeps trying.


Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624157
11/03/15 5:01 pm
11/03/15 5:01 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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fefsa
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looking for no-bang clearance is the first priority.

correct rocker geometry comes next, and i'm not convinced it's as important as i used to think.

obviously, really wrong is still really wrong, but sort-of wrong seems less wrong than just acceptable.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624162
11/03/15 6:12 pm
11/03/15 6:12 pm
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Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
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Originally Posted By kevin


obviously, really wrong is still really wrong, but sort-of wrong seems less wrong than just acceptable.



The Catholic school nuns missed you, didn't they... LOL!

I get it.

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624197
11/04/15 4:13 am
11/04/15 4:13 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,666
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy
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Kevin, I'm far from anything of an expert, but I personally would have measured your lift with both case hands bolted together, you could very quickly alter how close you are to the Tappet block. A strip of plastigauge would tell you how much clearance you have.
If your going to use the adjustable push rod tunnels, then I would be raising the cylinder and skimming the top face.

For the cam, get your micrometer and measure the base circle, deduct this from the second measurement which includes the base circle and the full height of the cam.
The next measurement is at the valve, that's how much actual lift you have.

Re rocker geometry.

I think it's a lot more important than you might believe, I've worn out a good set of guides in a short space of time which I believe is down to poor rocker geometry. Trying to get the valves to lap in again was a nightmare. ( this head has gone back on whilst I wait for another head to come back from the machine shop - then this one will go in).

Last edited by Allan Gill; 11/04/15 4:18 am.

beerchug
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Allan Gill] #624245
11/04/15 12:30 pm
11/04/15 12:30 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

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fefsa
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you're right, i'm not going to be running half a motor, so i'll check with the thing assembled. but just trying to see where i was starting out at didn't need precision.

also i purposely didn't use a base gasket for this, to allow for all the available squish when assembling the top. i could solve the clearance problem instantly by using a thick enough gasket, but i would lose squish and compression. the composition gaskets i have run 0.015 to about 0.020, and i have a copper one that measures 0.021 that arrived in the mail yesterday to experiment with. it may be that your idea about using a gasket and skimming the top is the simplest way to do it.

on the rocker geometry, obviously you want to get it as right as you can, because there is exactly one setup that gives maximum valve lift, and it's the one where side loading the guides is minimal and balanced for and aft. i've read where people tune powerbands by playing with this, but it starts to go over my head really quickly. i tried three base gaskets once on a bonneville (stock pushrods) to see if it would let me run regular gasoline, and the rocker arm misalignment was dramatic.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624310
11/04/15 8:51 pm
11/04/15 8:51 pm
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Posts: 3,507
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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I thought triumph push rod tube seals came in a variety of thicknesses?
If your set up uses thicker ones heres what i would do.
Dont worry about the inlets 2 thou is two thou, it will increase with heat.
For the exhaust raise the lifter block by 25 thou or more with a spacer and fit correspondingly thinner pushrod tube seals . , if you use a base gasket you will have plenty room for the inlet
tappets. But, I would check with both cases together, you wont get full lift with the cam unsupported at the far end.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624311
11/04/15 8:54 pm
11/04/15 8:54 pm
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Florida PanHandle
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Originally Posted By kevin
i've read where people tune powerbands by playing with this, but it starts to go over my head really quickly. i tried three base gaskets once on a bonneville (stock pushrods) to see if it would let me run regular gasoline, and the rocker arm misalignment was dramatic.


This is where my thought on "splitting the difference" comes in.

BUT, this is based on the thought that the factory already had the ideal setup.

Combining this with Mr. Healy's suggestion of shimming the tappet block seems to be the least of all evils.

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624364
11/05/15 9:06 am
11/05/15 9:06 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,513
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP

fefsa
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i agree the solution is looking like shimming the tappet blocks up a bit. i've got some coming now from eBay so i can try out john healy's suggestion of trimming one to use as a tool for measuring clearances. i've already trimmed the ears on two that i have so that they clear the cam nose, but that idea was when i was still planning on making up the rest of the clearance by refacing the tappets.

i didn't measure the tappets before i filed the ears so i don't know how much i took off, which i need to know before i can come up with the appropriate shims.

gavin, messing with an assortment of seals has always been a curse of the triumph pushrod tubes, but it might turn out to be a blessing on this instead. shimming the tappet blocks requires the least changes elsewhere, as the neither the tappets nor the pushrods are affected (within reason). shimming the block and then skimming the top requires more changes to the stuff in between.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624369
11/05/15 9:29 am
11/05/15 9:29 am
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Posts: 3,258
Running from demons in WNY
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Kevin, the top locating ring on the push rod tube is brazed. I have heated the tubes and moved the rings slightly to suit conditions several times. Of course it ruins the fine chrome finish... grin


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Hillbilly bike] #624389
11/05/15 12:21 pm
11/05/15 12:21 pm
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kevin roberts Online content OP

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I didnt know that.


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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #624392
11/05/15 1:03 pm
11/05/15 1:03 pm
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ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP

fefsa
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not about the chrome, I mean

I thought the ring was a rolled in crimp


live every day.
die only once.
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