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#620820 - 10/06/15 6:40 pm Layshaft needle bearing  
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The bike's a '70 Lightning. The only 'magical' part of my bike left is the gearbox. It all seems pretty straightforward, but I'm trying to wrap my head around layshaft endfloat, the shims and the layshaft needle bearing. I have a new needle bearing and have removed the old one from the case. I can see the vapor blasted aluminum and I can see the bare aluminum where the needle bearing once sat. I assumed that the needle bearing was pressed from the inside against a ridge, but I now see that this is not the case.

Looking at the setup, I assume the layshaft shim sits against the edge of the needle bearing...? How far is the needle bearing supposed to protrude from the inside face of the gearbox cavity?


Josh
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#620822 - 10/06/15 6:56 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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The bearing goes in flush, the shim sits on the casing. Start the bearing in the warm case then use the layshaft with the endplate to press the bearing home by just assembling it into the case, you may have to use an extra washer to press it right home.

You only want a few thou of endfloat as that is what governs the engagement of the dogs.



#620834 - 10/06/15 10:16 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: NickL]  
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Originally Posted By NickL
The bearing goes in flush,
Not so fast. That bearing in my Triumph 500 sits proud of the face by a significant amount and the installation procedure for needle bearings in the Torrington manual also has it so. Surely the BSA manual has something to say about this(?) so by all means consult it.

#620836 - 10/06/15 10:24 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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I skimmed through the factory manual and I could find nothing on this particular subject. From what I've read, it seems the Triumph layshaft bearing sits proud. While I didn't measure it out, it appeared that the BSA bearing sat flush, but I didn't mic it out.


Josh
#620837 - 10/06/15 10:43 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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I take it back. The Torrington manual wants it below the surface by a minimum of 0.01":


#620844 - 10/07/15 1:49 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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However, although not exactly he same gearbox the A75 manual says to "Locate the bronze thrust washer over the inner needle roller bearing." and the T150 manual shows the bearing should protrude from the face of the case by 0.073"-0.078". So the bearing should protrude far enough to hold the bronze washer but by less than the thickness of the washer.
You could also measure the depth of the bearing and the length that the layshaft protudes with the thrust washer on the shaft. The end thickness of the bearing is 0.09".

#620847 - 10/07/15 3:50 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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The bloody washer is not bronze in an a65 it's a steel thrust but i'll leave it to those who know..... i've only built about 200 of 'em.



#620849 - 10/07/15 4:31 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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The A65 was designed in the BSA engineering office and will follow their practice which is to have the needle roller fully inside the hole and the thrush washer was full width and located on the shaft. The A75 engine was Triumph designed using a Triumph gearbox and followed their practice which was to have the roller sticking out and used to locate the larger ID thrustwasher.

So its a BSA engine so use BSA practise and allow the thrushwasher to do its thing without use of the needle roller as a datum point.

PS just checked a BSA unit gearbox and the needle roller is pushed well inside the hole, thrustwasher is steel and runs on the layshaft.

#620853 - 10/07/15 5:21 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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If you were lucky enough to get the correct torrington bearing it has an oil hole which should be lined up as well. If you could only get either a caged needle or a jap copy bearing it will not have the oil hole.

My apologies for getting a bit shitty.........



#620924 - 10/07/15 2:59 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: NickL]  
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Originally Posted By NickL
If you were lucky enough to get the correct torrington bearing it has an oil hole which should be lined up as well.
The following post shows what kind of bearing you should look for, and explains the consequences of using a substitute:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=549708#Post549708

Since there's some uncertainty in possible differences in practices by BSA and Triumph in installing this bearing, the depth of the oil hole in the case definitely indicates how far BSA expected the bearing to be pressed in.

#620940 - 10/07/15 4:47 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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I would think there is no problem with the load bearing capacity of the caged type needle roller bearing. There is not a massive axial load on the layshaft, My 1135 Suzuki uses caged needle rollers and produces in excess of 110BHP.
Caged rollers are less likely to seize due to the rollers rubbing together or the rollers skewing


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#620942 - 10/07/15 5:08 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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Nick L recons:
"If you were lucky enough to get the correct torrington bearing it has an oil hole which should be lined up as well. If you could only get either a caged needle or a jap copy bearing it will not have the oil hole. "


Thats right , i couldn't get one with the hole and was told they were obsolete ( a few years back) , i got the ones without the hole and realy carefully just ground a little slot in the case of the brg, i stopped grinding when there was only like a wafer thin bit of metal left and busted it out with a dentist pick type thing........not wonderful engineering practice i admit but hey it worked fine.

I would not expect an enclosed needle roller brg to use the lip of the cage as any sort of datum, it would just be bad engineering practice.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
#620946 - 10/07/15 5:26 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: NickL]  
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Originally Posted By NickL
If you were lucky enough to get the correct torrington bearing it has an oil hole which should be lined up as well. If you could only get either a caged needle or a jap copy bearing it will not have the oil hole.

My apologies for getting a bit shitty.........


An oil hole in a layshaft needle bearing, which is submerged in oil?

What for?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#620950 - 10/07/15 5:49 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: Andy Higham]  
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Originally Posted By Andy Higham
Caged rollers are less likely to seize due to the rollers rubbing together or the rollers skewing
While that's important for roller bearings in the big end of an engine that sees 6000+ rpm, even at 120 mph the layshaft is turning only 3200 rpm. Seizure just isn't an issue. However, if you read again the post linked to in my previous email you'll see a crowded roller bearing in this application will have a significantly longer lifetime than a caged roller bearing. That's why it's worthwhile to try to find the proper bearing.

p.s. I realized the discussion of lifetime isn't in the post mentioned above but rather a few posts later in the thread, specifically:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=550065#Post550065

Last edited by Magnetoman; 10/07/15 6:48 pm. Reason: added p.s.
#620957 - 10/07/15 7:01 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Originally Posted By triton thrasher
Originally Posted By NickL
If you were lucky enough to get the correct torrington bearing it has an oil hole which should be lined up as well. If you could only get either a caged needle or a jap copy bearing it will not have the oil hole.

My apologies for getting a bit shitty.........


An oil hole in a layshaft needle bearing, which is submerged in oil?

What for?



The beezer uses steel washers as thrusts, so this in effect shrouds the end of the bearing, as this is the case beezers put an oil gallery drilling into the case and used the appropriate bearing. I tend to agree the approach is over the top but in all honesty i've never had to replace one of those bearings anyway, they last for ever, even when i was racing one. The main reason for stupid people replacing them is getting the cases blasted and filling the bloody things up with glass beads like the rest of the motor.
The load capacity of the crowded bearing is higher than the caged one and as this bearing is being axially loaded it's better to use a crowded one.



#620958 - 10/07/15 7:06 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: Andy Higham]  
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Originally Posted By Andy Higham
I would think there is no problem with the load bearing capacity of the caged type needle roller bearing. There is not a massive axial load on the layshaft, My 1135 Suzuki uses caged needle rollers and produces in excess of 110BHP.
Caged rollers are less likely to seize due to the rollers rubbing together or the rollers skewing


The bearing is being twisted in operation as the two shafts in the box are trying to force each other apart, this is the loading that bearing has to stand. The layshaft is only supported at each end so fitting the crowded bearing with it's higher load rating IS a good idea if available. As for your jap crap, i couldn't give a monkey's mate.



#620966 - 10/07/15 8:21 pm Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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Another reason I replaced the bearing was because the rollers are pretty pitted, although they did at one point have some glass beads in them (does that make me a stupid person...I don't know!). I appreciate the layshaft press advice Nick...it worked a treat! The new bearing does not have the oil hole. I've read several posts on this site about that issue and a number of people who run them without the oil hole without issue...what's the concensus?


Josh
#620984 - 10/08/15 1:49 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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If that's what's available it will be ok. As TT said its awash with oil anyway, some will find it's way in.

Bloody bead blasting, causes more agro than it's worth eh? Just to get a shiny engine.



#620986 - 10/08/15 3:20 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: NickL]  
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Ah, NickL, you might be a crusty old bugger at times, but you are a sagacious one!

#620990 - 10/08/15 4:24 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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NickL, there is no need to insult my Suzuki.
I have just looked up the data on the caged needle roller bearing I am using in my pre-unit gearbox. The dynamic load rating is 9500KN or for our American cousins 1,068 Ton force or 2,136,000 Pound force.
I would suggest that if those kind of loadings were present in the gearbox, the cases would fail before the bearing

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Bearing...oduct_info.html


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#620991 - 10/08/15 4:27 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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Crusty??? I thought i was being very diplomatic, i didn't refer to parentage or the such.

Anyone with any sense doesn't take me seriously anyway!



#620992 - 10/08/15 4:31 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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I wasn't insulting your Rice grinder, i was just saying i wasn't very interested in it.

If you now look up the crowded roller bearing you'll see it has a larger rating, i agree the difference will only have one outcome ....... Life expectancy.

All the best
Nick



#620993 - 10/08/15 4:52 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: NickL]  
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Ah, that explains a lot! I sustained head injuries in a previous life, so that explains why I have taken your posts seriously! And now you imply you are a gibbering old bugger!
Fair dinkum, NickL, don't hide your light behind a bushel, I 'm not the only one that benefits from your, sometimes pithy, wisdom! It is much appreciated. And thats all the pocket urinating you are going to get!

#620994 - 10/08/15 5:11 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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A higher load rating does not equate to longer life.
In a caged roller bearing the cage holds the rollers parallel to the shaft and outer race, ensuring they only roll. A crowded roller bearing will allow the rollers to skew, this means the rollers are sliding or rubbing on the shaft and the race.
There is a good reason crowded roller bearings are becoming obsolete, and its not because they are better than caged rollers


1955 BSA B31 400cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350cc
1967 Greeves 360cc Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
Modified Nu-Trak GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
#621004 - 10/08/15 7:04 am Re: Layshaft needle bearing [Re: JD]  
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The ability in this case of the crowded bearing to allow the skew is an advantage..... when the shaft is bowing in the centre which it does under load the ends of the shaft will flex, this would put a very heavy load on a caged needle roller. Caged versions of these bearings were available at the time these motors were designed, the reason crowded types were chosen is design preference.
I agree that in the real world it would probably make small difference but i'm sure that was the reasoning behind it, there was normally a genuine reason.

BTW, sorry about your Suzuki.
Just remember ....Life is too important to be taken seriously.



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