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#612471 - 08/11/15 6:06 pm Extra fuses neg or pos side ?  
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FLYNN54 Offline
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MOTHERWELL NORTH LANARKSHIRE S...

As my post suggests. Your thoughts and experiences are welcomed regarding:
I would like to add additional fuses to my wiring harness on my OIF 1971 BSA A65L.The bike has a new harness ( from Burton Bikes in the UK )with the stock single cylinder style 35 amp (suicide) fuse. My options appear to be 1) fit a 3 in, 3 out fuse box between the coils - a fuse for charging, lighting and ignition circuits ( in addition changing the cylinder fuse to a splash proof type). Or 2) splice into the harness three splash proof fuses holders that clip together (again adding a fourth to replace the "old "35 amp fuse). The general idea is to provide protection for different circuits in the event of an “electrical mishap". The main question is which side of the circuit is best for the extra fuses - the Positive earth side (RED) or Negative side (various colour codes). Or does it not really matter ? Podtronic unit (on bracket under the battery carrier) and Boyer Unit (which will need to be repositioned somewhere) are already fitted. Trying to keep the wiring from resembling a large plate of spaghetti is a consideration also. As always thank you for your thoughts in advance and sorry to any pasta lovers !! John "Born to be Mild" Flynn.

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#612480 - 08/11/15 8:24 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Hi John,
I have a fuse box on my '71 A65, but my wiring harness is far from stock and connected negative common (AKA "Earth".)
In any case, it would be most difficult to isolate each circuit's common lead, therefore much easier to fuse the negative side, in your case. I believe that Hella make a compact, 4-circuit fuse holder with a cover.
Mine uses a single input, with fuses for lights, brake lights, horns, and charging. I have a separate fuse on the Pazon.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#612481 - 08/11/15 8:26 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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a single fuse will protect your wiring equally well on either the hot or the earth side of your battery.

but if you're doing multiple fuses, put them on the feed (hot) side of the circuits you want to protect. if you fuse the earth part, then the wiring or the component can short to ground anywhere before the fuse and melt whatever is there. if you fuse the hot side, closer to the battery, then more of the circuit is protected.

your original configuration is negative feed (hot), positive return (earth). fuse the negative wires.

if you're using a 3-in, 3-out fuse holder, put it in a convenient place and then cut the circuits you want to protect, splicing in two leads to the bare ends, one to the fuse, and other from it. this will disturb your harness the least, and you won't have to fish around under the tank or inside the headlamp shell for an inline fuse.

fuse the feed to the Boyer for sure. my podtronics on my 72 T120 is unfused, and just connects directly to the battery hot side.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612495 - 08/11/15 10:03 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Stuart Online content
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Hi John,

Originally Posted By kevin
a single fuse will protect your wiring equally well on either the hot or the earth side of your battery.

'Fraid not.

On standard pre-'79 Britbike electrics, the single fuse is usually (always?) in the Brown/Blue attached to battery -ve. If you're unlucky enough to experience something (loose tool, broken seat pan, etc.) touching both the -ve battery terminal and the structure of the bike, that fuse won't protect the battery. sick

Otoh, single fuse in the Red wire attached to battery positive will protect from both the above situation and short-circuits elsewhere in the wiring. bigt

Originally Posted By FLYNN54
I would like to add additional fuses to my wiring harness
new harness
My options appear to be
a fuse for charging, lighting and ignition circuits
Podtronic

You aren't likely to be able to do it without at least some hacking into the new harness. frown

"charging": if the Podtronic is connected direct to the battery terminals, not into the harness, a fuse in either wire will isolate it; otoh, if it's connected into the harness at the original rectifier connections, the existing fuse is already between the battery and the rectifier connection in the Brown/Blue.

You could fuse "lighting" by disconnecting the existing Brown/Green from the ignition switch, connecting a new Brown/Green wire from the ignition switch to the fuse box and another from the fuse box back to the aforementioned disconnected Brown/Green.

The "ignition circuit" isn't separate from the other White wires supplied from ignition switch terminal #2 until it emerges from a standard harness just before connecting to the wiring to the handlebar switch cluster that contains the kill button.

Edit: however, like several other posters, I include a fuse to protect an e.i. When I was doing my first rewire, John Carpenter of Mistral Engineering in GB - who marketed and did the Rita technical backup for Lucas - advised a 10A fuse between the handlebar kill switch and the Rita 'black box'. Curiously, when I asked the same question of Ernie Bransden during rewiring a bike with B-B e.i., he advised against a fuse - "Something else to go wrong", he said. grin

Originally Posted By FLYNN54
The main question is which side of the circuit is best for the extra fuses - the Positive earth side (RED) or Negative side (various colour codes).

To fuse a particular circuit, you must use the "Negative [supply] side"; a fuse in the Red return cable could not protect the supply cable or from a fault that connected to the cycle parts through the component's mounting.

Otoh, as I've explained above, a replacement for the standard single fuse would be best in the Red cable attached to battery positive.

Originally Posted By FLYNN54
Trying to keep the wiring from resembling a large plate of spaghetti is a consideration also.

You would've been wiser to have considered additional fuses before buying an off-the-shelf harness. While nothing's impossible, 'fraid adapting said off-the-shelf harness to a fuse box will more than likely result in it "resembling a large plate of spaghetti". frown

Hth.

Regards,

Last edited by Stuart; 08/12/15 9:12 pm. Reason: Ignition fusing clarification
#612499 - 08/11/15 10:30 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Mark Z Online content
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I agree with Stuart on fusing the "ground" leg of the battery.

The only reason to install multiple fuses is in order to allow some circuits (for instance, the ignition circuit) to function when there's a short in some other circuit (for instance, lighting). This of course precludes having the battery directly fused, as a short anywhere will shut down everything.

I've never felt the need for having more than one fuse, mainly because, if there's a short anywhere in my bike, I won't ride it until it's found and fixed.

And it doesn't have to be a 35-amp (suicide? ok...) fuse; a 15-amp fuse is all you need. The fuse only has to be "big" enough to carry the maximum amount of current that will flow in normal operation. Headlamp, 5A, ignition, 3A, everything else, an amp or so. Adds up to about 10.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#612503 - 08/11/15 10:42 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted By Stuart


On standard pre-'79 Britbike electrics, the single fuse is usually (always?) in the Brown/Blue attached to battery -ve.




Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612505 - 08/11/15 10:54 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Mark Z]  
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Originally Posted By Mark Z

I've never felt the need for having more than one fuse, mainly because, if there's a short anywhere in my bike, I won't ride it until it's found and fixed.


mark, you won't have any choice. with only one fuse, you can't ride it until it's found and fixed.

the advantage of separate fuses is that a bad horn or turn signal circuit won't keep the ignition from running, so you can ride the bike home and fix it there.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612506 - 08/11/15 10:55 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Mark Z]  
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Hi Mark,

Originally Posted By Mark Z
it doesn't have to be a 35-amp (suicide? ok...) fuse; a 15-amp fuse is all you need.

John The O.P. is in GB, where the single cylindrical glass-'n'-metal fuse will be labelled with its ("35-amp") 'blow' rating. The equivalent US rating would be "15-amp" 'continuous'. smile

Hth.

Regards,

#612509 - 08/11/15 11:09 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Hi Kevin,

Originally Posted By kevin
the advantage of separate fuses is that a bad horn or turn signal circuit won't keep the ignition from running, so you can ride the bike home and fix it there.

If you re-read his original post, John The O.P. hasn't asked about separately-fusing "horn or turn signal circuit[s]" ...

Just as a matter of possible interest, since I rewired my first bike over the winter of 1982/83, I've never had a "bad" circuit, so extra fuses and yards of extra wiring would not have been of any benefit whatsoever. Plan and execute the job right in the first place, KISS and you'll be able to hand it over to your grand-children ...

Hth.

Regards,

#612510 - 08/11/15 11:09 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Stuart]  
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^^^i didn't know that.

...about the differences in british fuse ratings. i've always run a 30-amp US fuse, and wondered why i needed something that huge

Last edited by kevin; 08/11/15 11:10 pm.

Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612512 - 08/11/15 11:20 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Hi Kevin,

Originally Posted By kevin
i didn't know
about the differences in british fuse ratings. i've always run a 30-amp US fuse,

eek That's equivalent to 60A 'blow'. Just as well the bike never had a 'short' ...

Regards,

#612513 - 08/11/15 11:21 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Originally Posted By Stuart

If you re-read his original post, John The O.P. hasn't asked about separately-fusing "horn or turn signal circuit[s]" ...


you're right. he asked about installing separate fuses for "charging, lighting and ignition circuits." yet the same observation obtains, stuart. with a single fuse for the entire electrical system, you can be stranded by a loose wire in your tailight. i always separate my ignition feed from any other circuit in the harness.

with your circuits fused separately, a failure in one doesn't make for a failure in all.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612515 - 08/11/15 11:23 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Stuart]  
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Originally Posted By Stuart
Hi Kevin,

Originally Posted By kevin
i didn't know
about the differences in british fuse ratings. i've always run a 30-amp US fuse,

eek That's equivalent to 60A 'blow'. Just as well the bike never had a 'short' ...

Regards,


woo are you right.

i tossed my original harness in my first machine as soon as i could. never had a problem since. i did run a single fuse for many years on it, but i never liked the "all my eggs in one basket approach." i'm running 10 and 15-amp ATC fuses in it now.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612521 - 08/11/15 11:43 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Mitch Offline
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you want fuses in the "hot" side of the battery unless the frame is not grounded (earthed). any wire that might get rubbed through and touch the frame would be shorted in a normal system, so fuses are as close to the battery as possible to minimize unprotected wire. the fuse protects the wires... once a user unit goes bad & fries, it's already gone, the thing now it to prevent the wires from catching on fire. there should be NO unfused wires that source power from the battery. there are certain types of tach generators and EGT probes etc that generate only low voltages that are not powerful enough to cause damage, those can be left unfused. we have them on aircraft but they are not often seen on motorcycles

#612538 - 08/12/15 5:35 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Mitch]  
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Hi Mitch,

Originally Posted By Mitch
you want fuses in the "hot" side of the battery

Uh-uh. As posted already:-

Originally Posted By Stuart
On standard pre-'79 Britbike electrics, the single fuse is usually in the Brown/Blue attached to battery -ve. If you're unlucky enough to experience something (loose tool, broken seat pan, etc.) touching both the -ve battery terminal and the structure of the bike, that fuse won't protect the battery. sick

Otoh, single fuse in the Red wire attached to battery positive will protect from both the above situation and short-circuits elsewhere in the wiring.

Originally Posted By Mitch
any wire that might get rubbed through and touch the frame would be shorted in a normal system,

... because the frame is connected to battery +ve, a fuse between the frame and battery +ve will blow. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

#612642 - 08/12/15 5:44 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Originally Posted By kevin
i always separate my ignition feed from any other circuit in the harness.

with your circuits fused separately, a failure in one doesn't make for a failure in all.

Makes it easier to figure out which circuit is at fault, too.

+2 on fusing the ignition, especially electronic ignition. I had a dual-lead coil go low resistance once on a ride. The 5A fuse in that circuit saved me from a fried black box. 20A single main fuse would have kept supplying too much current to the ignition until the smoke escaped.

John: If you decide to install a fuse box, plan ahead and understand exactly which wire to cut, and where. Figure out exactly where the fuse box will live, measure twice, cut once and you can avoid a lot of "spaghetti." I had the advantage of designing my harness with a fuse box in mind. Certain circuits, like the horn, would be difficult to fuse separately with the stock wiring.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#612663 - 08/12/15 8:59 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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You will normally find that the 25 cent fuses will protect themselves by allowing the expensive downstream equipment to blow up/burnout first anyway.............



#612688 - 08/13/15 1:18 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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Mitch Offline
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whuuuuttt??? choose the proper rating and style. there is fast, normal, and slo-blo. even a slo-blow will cook off at 2x the rated current (in less than a second). a dead short will take out a fuse that is 2, 3, maybe even 4x the rating

it's nice to have a main fuse, then, sub system fuses at lower ratings. lights, ignition, accessory, etc. any failure in a subsystem should leave the main intact. the only time a main would blow is a dead short on the main cable

#612780 - 08/13/15 2:54 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Mitch]  
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Hi Mitch,

Note Nick's "Loc:" ... I think the humour has something to do with being upside-down ...

Regards, wink

#612862 - 08/14/15 6:58 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: Stuart]  
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meanwhile, in australia . . .



Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#612979 - 08/15/15 2:01 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
That your idea of a date?
We like to keep our women on the pillion here in the states.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#612993 - 08/15/15 4:56 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: DavidP]  
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Triless Online content
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OZ
So, that explains why quite a few of you blokes have the wool pulled over your eyes!

#613004 - 08/15/15 7:43 am Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Stuart Online content
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Originally Posted By kevin

shocked O...M...G

Still, we can console ourselves it's only a Suzuki owner?

laughing

#613083 - 08/15/15 7:54 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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My comment was meant as a joke BUT if you want to start getting pedantic the calculations for loop line impedance must be taken into account when sizing circuit protection devices not just
I squared T. You can fit a 5 amp fuse and have wiring cook before it blows if the wiring is sized incorrectly or if it is long enough.

Remember Green to brown and blew to bits!

Don't take anything i say seriously, i never do!



#613362 - 08/17/15 6:22 pm Re: Extra fuses neg or pos side ? [Re: FLYNN54]  
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MOTHERWELL NORTH LANARKSHIRE S...
Thank you to all who responded to my post regarding adding extra fuses/protection to my wiring harness. After reading your experiences I intend to fit a 4 way fuse box in the space between the coils. Circuit 1 lighting. 2 Ignition. 3 charging through Podtronics - using existing (old rectifier) terminals. 4 a spare to carry a fuse - all on the "Hot Side" as suggested. Sticking a small cardboard box under the seat and slamming it shut shows enough clearance to be present. (high tech eh?). Some fuse boxes on sale in the UK do appear to have their terminals somewhat exposed and within close touching distance of the metal coil holding tray - others have their metal terminals protected by a ledge below them ( I'm about to order the latter type). I fully take on board the comments made regarding "new" stock type harnesses - a custom made one would have been a far better bet- ha ho!! As stated previously the rationale for all of this was to avoid being immobile because of a "fault" in a circuit taking out the single fuse. As a footnote my new battery has its terminals facing forward and they are too close to the frame plate behind the oil filler cap (oif) for my liking - I must wrap it in old inner tube to be on the safe side. Best regards and thank you again. John.

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