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Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #598024
05/05/15 12:09 pm
05/05/15 12:09 pm
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Posts: 1,644
Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Offline
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Me too.
I wonder what's in store for me after first start of my T150 engine.

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Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #602583
06/02/15 11:27 am
06/02/15 11:27 am
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Posts: 1,339
SE Ohio
No Name Man Offline

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Hey Paul...any result yet? Waiting (with somewhat bated breath).

Bill E


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
95 Trident
Too much moderation is bad for you.

Re: No oil return [Re: No Name Man] #602610
06/02/15 2:31 pm
06/02/15 2:31 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,775
Central Virginia
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Originally Posted By No Name Man
Hey Paul...any result yet? Waiting (with somewhat bated breath).

Bill E


It might have caught fire and been accidentally destroyed when the frustration bar shorted across the insurance terminals .... ?

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #604880
06/16/15 11:50 am
06/16/15 11:50 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,775
Central Virginia
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Been a few weeks ... Is your "mental state"/"motivation" getting to the point where you can look at this pesky problem again?

Don't want it to sit too long ... I know where that leads from sad experience ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #604941
06/16/15 6:50 pm
06/16/15 6:50 pm
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Posts: 202
Fl., U.S.A.
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I sent Paul an email last week. He has been busy with family matters and his Norton so he hasn't taken the time to work on his T160 since before the TSMR. Im sure he would have more offers of free help if he would just provide free beer!

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #604997
06/17/15 7:42 am
06/17/15 7:42 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,584
Springfield Nebraska
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it's cheaper to buy my own beer.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
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Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #605126
06/18/15 12:03 am
06/18/15 12:03 am
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Posts: 291
Omaha, NE, USA
Paul Sammut Offline OP
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No appetite for stripping the 160, yet. Got stuck in with a few other "to do" projects.
Not to worry, though, Lannis, as I fully intend to get to it the week after next.
Thanks for the interest, though.
BTW, plenty of beer in my fridge if anyone wants to come and help 😊


Paul

'74 Commando
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #606350
06/28/15 12:35 am
06/28/15 12:35 am
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Posts: 9,867
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Paul,

Originally Posted By Paul Sammut
No appetite for stripping the 160,
I fully intend to get to it the week after next.

Just as a matter of interest, you are using oil hoses with reinforced walls?

In a thread on the TriumphRat Classic, Vintage and Veteran forum, I was describing my experience with unreinforced oil hoses and it occurred to me that the symptoms were similar to yours - good flow when cold but oil accumulating in the sump when hot.

The problem on my T160 was down to a dpo replacing the original reinforced hoses with unreinforced; unfortunately, I didn't have the experience to spot the cause; one day, the hose from engine to cooler collapsed completely, starving the feed side of the oil pump and wrecking both the bottom end and valves 'n' guides. cry Luckily, I entrusted the rebuild to a proper expert, who spotted the cause. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #606391
06/28/15 10:46 am
06/28/15 10:46 am
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Posts: 3,697
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DMadigan Offline
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Hi Stuart, I do not understand your description. The hose from the engine to cooler is the return side and under slight pressure. How could it collapse?

Re: No oil return [Re: DMadigan] #606406
06/28/15 12:50 pm
06/28/15 12:50 pm
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted By DMadigan
The hose from the engine to cooler is the return side and under slight pressure. How could it collapse?

Where the hose bends from vertical behind the engine over the front of the seat tube to follow the front frame top tube - on a T150 or T160 adjacent to the top bolt joining the front and rear frames. When the hot oil warmed the unreinforced hose, it was originally just partially collapsing; eventually, it collapsed completely. eek

Hth.

Regards,

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #606559
06/29/15 1:59 pm
06/29/15 1:59 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 202
Fl., U.S.A.
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Stuart- My T160 came with both oil hoses routed over the frame tube and positioned on each side of the bolt of tank mount. When I removed the fuel tank I noticed both hoses had signs of chaffing from the ridge on the bottom of the tank pressing against them. It was such a tight fit I re-routed my feed tube under the frame tube when I reassembled the bike to prevent any decrease in oil flow to the engine. I never gave the return line a thought thinking the oil pressure would keep it "opened" and the feed line being the most important. I will certainly keep this in mind and give it another inspection. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #606595
06/29/15 7:49 pm
06/29/15 7:49 pm
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ohio
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I'm not sure if T160 was the same but here's the routing on my T150



When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: No oil return [Re: Thunderbutt] #606639
06/30/15 1:06 am
06/30/15 1:06 am
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Posts: 9,867
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted By Thunderbutt
My T160 came with both oil hoses routed over the frame tube and positioned on each side of the bolt of tank mount. When I removed the fuel tank I noticed both hoses had signs of chaffing from the ridge on the bottom of the tank pressing against them.

Hmmm ... might've been poor initial assembly or one of the minor changes to the harness; the T160 tanks' tunnels are wider at the rear than the T150's, just so they will fit over both oil pipes and the harness; the T160 in question had its unreinforced hoses replaced with reinforced and they're still there along with the original harness. :thumb

Shel: T150's hoses routing is sometimes different, because the tank tunnel is narrower, especially if the tank is US-market which (as you know?) was based on the late 'dry frame' TR6R tank, which was never designed to fit over two oil hoses as well as the frame and harness. frown

Originally Posted By Thunderbutt
It was such a tight fit I re-routed my feed tube under the frame tube when I reassembled the bike to prevent any decrease in oil flow to the engine.

Risking stating the obvious, neither of the hoses by that top frames joint are engine feed hoses - that runs from the bottom of the tank directly to the feed spigot under the engine. Around the top frames joint, one hose is from the engine to the rocker feed and cooler, the other is from the cooler to the tank.

Standard hoses with reinforced walls can be bent over the seat tubes without risking shutting off the oil flow; the front of the seat pan has plenty of clearance over the hoses and the frame seat tubes and, as I say, the tank tunnel should be wide enough to accommodate the frame tube, both hoses and the harness. All of the tanks I have can, albeit I put an additional cable tie around frame-hoses-harness a few inches up, so the edge of the tunnel doesn't catch any of them and push it below the tank when you're fitting. frown

Originally Posted By Thunderbutt
I never gave the return line a thought thinking the oil pressure would keep it "opened"

The scavenge side of the pump doesn't deal with much restriction between it and the tank; at standard, the cooler provides a little restriction, so some oil is diverted down the rocker feed hose(s); nevertheless, if you hold your finger over the tank return - for a few seconds after start-up to ensure the rockers get a good dousing - the scavenge 'pressure' won't push your finger off.

In my T160's case, the unreinforced hose collapsing at the bend closed it off and the scavenge side of the pump simply let the crankcases fill up. cry

This is why I was wondering what hose type Paul had fitted?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #606808
07/01/15 12:12 am
07/01/15 12:12 am
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DMadigan Offline
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This is where the R3 has a bit of an advantage. The oil line from the engine runs under the backbone and the return from the cooler runs under the seat tubes. Probably due to more room behind the airbox because of the inclined cylinders.

Last edited by DMadigan; 07/01/15 12:12 am.
Re: No oil return [Re: DMadigan] #606925
07/01/15 5:31 pm
07/01/15 5:31 pm
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Dave,

Mmmm ... the T160 has "inclined cylinders" ... and "advantages" like better ground clearance, cornering clearance, weight distribution ... Otoh, the R3's "advantage" is it might be able to use unreinforced hose ...

wink

Regards,

Re: No oil return [Re: Stuart] #606975
07/01/15 11:54 pm
07/01/15 11:54 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 291
Omaha, NE, USA
Paul Sammut Offline OP
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Hi Stuart,
An intriguing thought. I did use all new hoses and the ninety degree curve over the frame tubes are gentle. I cannot remember which hoses I bought but I believe they are reinforced. I will check in the morning.
BTW, I attached a large, air-filled syringe to the scavenge pipe at the rear of the sump plate opening and, with the return hose clamped off, could not discern a leak with depressing the plunger, except at the syringe attachment when really forced.


Paul

'74 Commando
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #607682
07/08/15 12:17 am
07/08/15 12:17 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 291
Omaha, NE, USA
Paul Sammut Offline OP
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What do you T160 owners use for the oil return hoses, please? I cannot, for the life of me, find reinforced oil line or transmission cooler line in 7/16" diameter. I've found any amount in the 3/8" size (fine for the feed side) and even 1/2" but no 7/16 at all. The line I'm using now is fuel line and is too soft for my liking and quite possibly behaving as Stuart had suggested might be happening.
I could probably force some of the 3/8" hose on but would rather not, if possible.
Thanks in advance


Paul

'74 Commando
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #607693
07/08/15 3:47 am
07/08/15 3:47 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,655
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
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Originally Posted By Paul Sammut
I cannot, for the life of me, find reinforced oil line or transmission cooler line in 7/16" diameter.


In this modern metric world you'd need to look for 11mm. smile
The line I've been using on my T160 for some years (as supplied, I think, by Triple Cycles, UK) is marked: "11 DIN 74310" which appears to be 11mm ID airbrake line.

http://ph.parker.com/us/en/airbrake-din-74310-automotive-air-braking-line/ih30315116-40

Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/08/15 3:50 am.
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #607726
07/08/15 10:20 am
07/08/15 10:20 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,279
Magnolia, TX
htown Online content
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It's listed as 8an or 11mm or 7/16
Here's what I recently bought but I haven't installed it yet.
http://www.eBay.com/itm/161731533590?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #607786
07/08/15 6:44 pm
07/08/15 6:44 pm
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ohio
shel Online content
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Originally Posted By Paul Sammut
What do you T160 owners use for the oil return hoses, please? I cannot, for the life of me, find 7/16 at all.

Mitch Klempf has 7/16, he has it in herring bone as well but it ain't cheap


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: No oil return [Re: shel] #607831
07/08/15 11:50 pm
07/08/15 11:50 pm
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Posts: 291
Omaha, NE, USA
Paul Sammut Offline OP
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Thanks very much, guys. I'll try Klempf first.


Paul

'74 Commando
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #612821
08/13/15 8:03 pm
08/13/15 8:03 pm
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Posts: 2,584
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Online content
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the bike has not been touched (out of frustration) but I have an idea to run by you.

If there is more restriction in the oil cooler than the rocker feed, could that cause the oil to flood the head and drain down the sump instead of flowing back to the tank?
and should there be a restricter in the the line to the rockers?


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
couple of beesas a ducati
and the Snake Bike
and a Honda?
Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #612827
08/13/15 9:03 pm
08/13/15 9:03 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Almost impossible. The rocker spindles have 0.059" holes, then the spindles have just the oil distribution grooves and the clearance of the rockers to let oil through.
The pump being a positive displacement type would most likely blow the line off the rocker feed if the cooler was that far plugged.
If you do not want to look for 7/16" hose, I have fittings for the engine, rockers, oil cooler and oil tank so -6 Socketless hose fittings can be used. The rockers would have to use my logoed (Triumph or Rocket 3) feed which has a -4 fitting.

Re: No oil return [Re: Richrd] #612846
08/14/15 3:02 am
08/14/15 3:02 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted By Richrd
If there is more restriction in the oil cooler than the rocker feed, could that cause the oil to flood the head and drain down the sump instead of flowing back to the tank?

Ime, no.

Also, from previous posts, the problem only appears after the bike has covered some distance/warmed up? I can't think of anything in the oil cooler that could cause "more restriction" when it's warm than when it's cold. confused "Tridentman" Richard should be along to give a definitive answer.

When Paul and you get back to the bike, you could check if the oil cooler has any noticeable restriction:-

. Put about a pint of oil in the crankcase, disconnect the scavenge hose from the cooler and direct it into a bowl, start the engine and observe the flow into the bowl. When the normal mixture of air and oil starts to come out of the hose, stop the engine.

. Reconnect the hose to the cooler, replace the pint of oil in the crankcase, disconnect the scavenge hose from the tank and direct it into the bowl, start the engine and observe the flow into the bowl, comparing it to the previous run.

Originally Posted By Richrd
should there be a restricter in the the line to the rockers?

Apart from the restriction of the rockers, shafts, etc. themselves? Don't think so.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: No oil return [Re: Paul Sammut] #612876
08/14/15 9:20 am
08/14/15 9:20 am
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New Jersey USA
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I cannot think of anything related to the cooler in isolation that would give more resistance when the oil is hot.
Actually the opposite is the case--the pressure drop across the cooler for any given flow rate is less when the oil is hot than when the oil is cold.
If you suspect the cooler of some sort of strange blockage that gets worse when hot then I suggest that you take the cooler off the bike and back flush it. This means pumping oil through the cooler in the opposite direction to the direction in which the oil flows in the normal installed situation.
However blockage of these coolers is very very rare--but on the other hand you have been struggling with this problem now for 5 months so in the paraphrased words of Sherlock Holmes "When you have discounted the obvious you must look at the not so obvious".
IMHO a problem which only shows up when hot but is OK cold probably points towards hoses rather than metallic things.
Best of luck!--and please post developments and hopefully the solution.
There is no knowing when another of us may have a similar problem.

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