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T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked #609347
07/20/15 6:25 am
07/20/15 6:25 am
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 205
London, England
Triumph5ta Offline OP
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Hello, my 1973 TR7RV has a partly blocked oil tank breather. This is the one that exits the oil tank/frame member up near the headstock.
I am trying to reduce oil leaks from what is otherwise a great running bike.
If I blow compressed air up through the pipe and into the oil tank I get a very faint flow of air that I can feel at the filler cap.
If I do the same on mates 74 T120V (identical OIF frame) I get a much freer flow of air at the filler cap.
In other words his is not restricted.
I have tried everything to clear it.
Stiff wire with a sharp point, section of old brake cable inner in a drill chuck, still partly blocked.
It seems to me that this breather is not a simple bit of tube that I could push right through. I seems to have some sort of restriction in the end. My mates bike is the same.
It is right up the top of the frame tube so there is no way I can see it. Even if I could I could'nt do much about it...
My question is does the fact it is PARTLY blocked make much difference? Should I worry about it. Apart from drilling a hole in the frame and tapping in some sort of new outlet I cant see how I can clear it...

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Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609351
07/20/15 7:51 am
07/20/15 7:51 am
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AngloBike Offline
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have youu managed to poke/blow through from inside?

I will look at mine

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: AngloBike] #609356
07/20/15 9:00 am
07/20/15 9:00 am
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 205
London, England
Triumph5ta Offline OP
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No, I don't see how I can get to it from the inside as it will be way up the top of the oil tank...

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609359
07/20/15 9:42 am
07/20/15 9:42 am
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Posts: 205
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Triumph5ta Offline OP
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I have oil leaking from the filler cap after a long ride. I have replaced the o-ring.
I have also run the bike with the oil level deliberately down at the low mark on the dip stick. Still leaks. It is as if I have over-filled the tank (I have not)
This is what led me to believe there is a build up of pressure in the oil tank.
So, if I cannot get into the top of the tank to clear the breather what are my options?

I am not keen on drilling another hole in the frame but maybe that is my only option?

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609360
07/20/15 9:47 am
07/20/15 9:47 am
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London, England
Triumph5ta Offline OP
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Here is a sketch which "MAY" help!

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609364
07/20/15 10:17 am
07/20/15 10:17 am
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Ger B Offline
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Looks like the BSA OIF tank vent.
It should be as open as a non blocked tube of that size.
Maybe a piece of solder or brazing residue blocked it since the day of construction?

But is it a real problem?
How much air has to pass there?
When the engine starts running some oil will return from the crankcase and raise the level in the tank,
so some air must escape.
When the engine runs, some oil is lost through the exhausts, so the level drops ever so slowly and some air must enter.
Some water, condensed inside the engine is caught in the oil and some water vapours need to escape, but it's not like a tea kettle.
If you can blow some air through that pipe, you might be afraid to burn yourself on cold water (as we say here).

Compare the oil consumption and return with fuel consumption.
The hole in your filler cap is much smaller than that vent pipe.

What goes on... ( a question in your sketch)
A plastic hose, leading all the way back to the rear mudguard.
See the picture in the link. If you do not like the colour, neither do I but it was the only colour available at that moment. grin

[click for a pic]


Ger B

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Ger B] #609366
07/20/15 10:33 am
07/20/15 10:33 am
Joined: Feb 2009
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London, England
Triumph5ta Offline OP
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Thanks Ger, What I don't understand is what is the arrangement for the breather inside the oil tank.

Oil returns to the tank and fills it up.
But, at the same time oil is being pumped out at the bottom.
So, my guess is the volume of air in the oil tank does not change much and I might well be chasing a non-problem or "afraid of burning myself with cold water" as you say.

Last edited by Triumph5ta; 07/20/15 10:34 am.
Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609367
07/20/15 10:35 am
07/20/15 10:35 am
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Quote:
my guess is the volume of air in the oil tank does not change much and I might well be chasing a non-problem

Correct.

beerchug


Ger B

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609373
07/20/15 12:27 pm
07/20/15 12:27 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Offline
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The return oil pump is twice the capacity of the feed, the return has a lot air and this air separates out and does not go back inside the engine, a restricted breather will allow a build up of pressure from this air and oil exiting via other routes.

Its not a non problem.

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609376
07/20/15 1:38 pm
07/20/15 1:38 pm
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Quote:
return has a lot air

Kommando is right.

Why didn't I think of that... Still... It can't be that much. It's a pump, not a blower.


Ger B

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609377
07/20/15 1:40 pm
07/20/15 1:40 pm
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I am due to take off my tank (79) and fiddle with my carbs.

I will look. I have a borescope and can shove a camera up my frame tube.
I wonder if it is possibly blocked by a shred of rubber that parted company with the inside of a rubber pipe?
You'd be forcing it up and making it more blocked.

If you could pressurise the pipe from the other end, it might pop out?

From memory my inlet rocker just plugs into that area, but I need to check.

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609383
07/20/15 2:21 pm
07/20/15 2:21 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
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kommando Offline
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Smoking Pipe cleaners are very useful for cleaning bent pipes.

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609389
07/20/15 3:18 pm
07/20/15 3:18 pm
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Pipe cleaners are a good idea

Plus (if you have a compressor/airline ) maybe making a T fitting that you could blow across the fixed pipe and use the Venturi effect? Fit a tube to the spigot and add the nose of an air duster through a slit in the side of the tube, pointing away from the frame. The blast would create suction on the frame end?

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609391
07/20/15 3:33 pm
07/20/15 3:33 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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If it's solidly blocked with weld or somesuch, could you cut it at the elbow, making it a straight pipe and run a drill through it?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: triton thrasher] #609492
07/21/15 11:05 am
07/21/15 11:05 am
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 205
London, England
Triumph5ta Offline OP
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Thanks, looks like I do have a problem then...
Triton Thrashers suggestion looks do-able. will try that and fish out as much swarf as possible with a magnet on a stick...

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: AngloBike] #609496
07/21/15 11:32 am
07/21/15 11:32 am
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Originally Posted By AngloBike
I am due to take off my tank (79) and fiddle with my carbs.

I will look. I have a borescope and can shove a camera up my frame tube.
I wonder if it is possibly blocked by a shred of rubber that parted company with the inside of a rubber pipe?
You'd be forcing it up and making it more blocked.

If you could pressurise the pipe from the other end, it might pop out?

From memory my inlet rocker just plugs into that area, but I need to check.


Thanks, let me know what you see up there!

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609759
07/23/15 1:54 pm
07/23/15 1:54 pm
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Working on the OIF BSA earlier this evening I thought about this thread and decided to test how mine blows through.
Cleaned the hose, put the end between my lips, and...

Blocked completely... untill I realised I left the filler cap on the frame tube tank.

With the filler cap off it was as open as you can expect from three feet of tube and a steel bend.

Please do not think that I think you are stupid, Triumph5ta, but did you, by any chance, leave the filler cap on when you did your blow j ... test?


Ger B

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609786
07/23/15 5:24 pm
07/23/15 5:24 pm
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That's OK!
I did remove the filler cap!

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609836
07/24/15 5:46 am
07/24/15 5:46 am
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Following on from that thought....

if the oil filler cap in place means that the tank is pretty much airtight, would buying a sacrificial cap and fitting a tube to it so that you could pressurise the frame be of benefit here?

I'd assume that you couldn't apply enough pressure to worry about a hydraulic effect, so increasing the air pressure in the top tube by a few psi "might" blow any blockage out?

I haven't taken my tank off yet, but rain is predicted this weekend so it is quite likely.

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609841
07/24/15 7:25 am
07/24/15 7:25 am
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Triumph5ta Offline OP
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Hmmm thats an idea, or a tight fitting rubber bung with a hole through it, that might work.

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609846
07/24/15 8:27 am
07/24/15 8:27 am
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a bung from a homebrew demijohn?

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #609847
07/24/15 8:47 am
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Quote:
would buying a sacrificial cap and fitting a tube to it so that you could pressurise the frame

Or keep the breathing cap as a permanent solution?


Ger B

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Ger B] #610866
07/31/15 8:07 am
07/31/15 8:07 am
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I blocked the filler opening with a bung that I had previously drilled a small hole in. Applied compressed air through it but no joy.
Have ordered a used filler cap, will drill a hole in that, install a barb fitting and put a breather hose on it and see if that helps.
If it does then I will look at a more permanent solution...

Re: T140 \ TR7 oil in frame oil tank breather blocked [Re: Triumph5ta] #610994
08/01/15 8:42 am
08/01/15 8:42 am
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Originally Posted By Triumph5ta
Hello, my 1973 TR7RV has a partly blocked oil tank breather.


If you get some air through the pipe then I doubt you need to get too excited about "freeing" it up. For reason beyond the scope of this reply I disconnected this breather on my '72 T120V (it was routed back into the primary breather system) and instead, placed a small (from a mower) fuel filter into the pipe. Now, this would offer some restriction to the airflow, and to date (some two years on) have seen no sign of oil, or anything to suggest this restriction has been a negative thing.

Oil leaks on your T140 will not be traced to this breather, partly blocked or no!!!!!!!!

The problem is that the 360 degree crank action pressurises the sump and generally motivates oil toward any defects in gaskets and seals on the bike. The sump ventilation system on the OIF Triumph is not effective in releasing sump pressure. The really is that the old thing is running with positive sump pressure.

Apart from having the most exacting fit to all gaskets and seals, there is little chance of having a leak free classic Triumph in the longer term, unless you have positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) to deliver negative sump pressure.

Whilst this comment may bring a howl of protests from owners in denial about oil leaks or seeps, the facts are well documented and one has only to read (with an open mind) the volumes of material printed here and in other places, of oil leaking issues pertaining to the classic Triumph motorcycle. If you're OCD about removing oil leaks, then install a PCV system to your old tart. RR

Last edited by RetroRod; 08/01/15 8:45 am.

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