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SRM Oil Pump Priming Question #609051
07/17/15 6:19 pm
07/17/15 6:19 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
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BillD47 Offline OP
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Florida
I need a little help. I replaced the functioning, (but wet sumping), oil pump on my '66 Spitfire with a SRM unit. The installation instructions were followed closely including torquing the mounting screws. Drained the oil tank and refilled (20/50W oil) as recommended and checked to ensure there was no air trapped in the feed line routed to the front of the oil block. No restrictions were added to either the feed or return lines. After approx. 70 kicks there is no oil coming from the PRV port.
How many kicks would you think before I should start checking for problems?
Thank you and best regards to all,
Bill

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Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609052
07/17/15 6:30 pm
07/17/15 6:30 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
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htown Online content
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
That should have done it. When I installed my SRM I'd say it took maybe 10-20 kicks. I'd check the feed and return line were not accidentally switched first.
If you end up pulling the cover off again you might want to try this method to test the pump from EV Engineering.
BSA A50/A65 Oil Pump Installation Tips

Please read the following before installing a pump.

The BSA unit twin oil pump installation is more than a bolt it on affair and go. I have found over the past 35 years or so that there is a sequence that should be performed to be sure that the pump will work correctly without binding. Do this with the crankshaft pump drive gear removed from the crank shaft, install this after the pump is installed.

This will require you to make up some makeshift tools to simulate the engine running so that you can visualize what is going on with the oiling system. If the engine is installed in the frame you already have the oil reservoir to feed oil to the pump if not I use a short piece of hose and a small funnel to feed oil to the pump( use a long enough piece of hose so that you can attach the funnel to the rear and above the pump level so that oil will gravitate to the pump). Now make up a short pump drive that will clamp onto the tach drive, I use a " hose about 8-10" long with a " or 5/16" stud pushed into one end and clamped so that I can use this to attach a drill motor to then clamp the other end onto the tach drive) If you have a 1969 or later engine you can attach a oil pressure gauge into the case and monitor your oil pressure and the blow off point of your oil pressure relief valve making sure it works correctly.

Start by filling your funnel with oil then spinning the drill to the right you should see the oil in the funnel begin to fall meaning the pump is pulling it into the engine (sometimes if the pump wasn`t filled with oil prior to installation it will cavitate and not want to pick up the oil in which case you may have to wait for the oil to work its way into the pump) now watch for oil bleeding from around the crank and right hand bushing area, this is normal, also look for oil leaking from the pump itself either at the body to drive snout junction or the end cap, a small amount of weeping here is not something to be concerned about with 50# of pressure but a profound leak is. If you have a 1969 or later and have installed a oil pressure gauge check to see what your peak pressure is, this should be in the 50-60# range. If the oil pressure relief valve is working correctly you should see the bypass oil bleeding away also into the sump area on 70 and earlier and into the return pipe on 70 and later. I also like to attach a hose to the pickup tube and insert this into a can of oil and test the pickup to be sure the scavenge is working too.

If after doing the above tests everything seems to be in good order then you can install the oil pump drive gear onto the end of the crank, because this threads on it will require you to index it with the worm gear in the pump drive housing, just be careful and turn the worm gear while threading on the pump drive gear so that the small teeth of the drive gear roll smoothly through the worm gear, after the leading edge clears the worm gear it will thread right on, tighten securely install the lock tab and jam nut.

WARNING: the torque figures for these fasteners in the manuals is incorrect, the worm gear should be 30ft lb maximum and the jam nut no more than 20ft lb

From here on it is standard assembly of the intermediate gear making sure the cam timing is correct then install the inner timing cover, tach drive, etc.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609119
07/18/15 9:01 am
07/18/15 9:01 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
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BillD47 Offline OP
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Posts: 43
Florida
Thank you for the quick reply. I've double checked the oil line routing and it is proper. So the hand writing is on the wall and the tear down will start today.
Bill

Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609127
07/18/15 10:56 am
07/18/15 10:56 am
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 305
Hampshire, England
DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Hampshire, England
One other option is to pressurise the oil tank and so force oil into the pump and associated galleries. I had to do this with my '71 A65 and that sorted it.


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609147
07/18/15 3:00 pm
07/18/15 3:00 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
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htown Online content
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
With no easy way of checking the oil pressure on a 66, I'd want to verify the pump was working correctly. When I first installed my SRM pump, I couldn't get the pressure to come up. Turns out the worm gear had a bad spot that wasn't rotating the oil pump spindle. Took it all apart, new worm gear and all is well. I wouldn't have known though without the gauge on it.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609150
07/18/15 3:26 pm
07/18/15 3:26 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
B
BillD47 Offline OP
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BillD47  Offline OP
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Posts: 43
Florida
Based on the input received, my plan is to check that the feed line (new herring bone hose), oil pipe and gallery are clear of obstructions to the pump and, if that proves good, remove the pump and check it's operation using the EV instructions. If all is good, I will flood all of the feeds to the pump with oil and pressurize the oil tank.
I'll let you know where the problem is found- that is if it is not too embarrassing.
Thanks again,
Bill

Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609390
07/20/15 3:29 pm
07/20/15 3:29 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 693
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Posts: 693
Farnham, Surrey, UK
I remember having the same issue with my freshly rebuilt A65 engine. The mechanic who installed and line reamed the timing side bearing insisted that I kick the engine over until oil was seen returning to the tank.

With this advise in mind and having previously read the guidance posted by Htown from Ed V, I set about checking and priming the oil system.

The first phase was to check the oil pump and return valve operation by spinning the pump in situ using a cordless drill. This test proved that there were no oil leaks from the pump, that the OPRV was functioning (Im using a SRM type OPRV and you can hear when its blowing off pressure) and that a small amount of oil was weeping from the timing side bush showing it was being lubricated and oil being directed to the big ends. I can highly recommend this test as it gives a high degree of confidence that the oil supply side is working.

The second phase consisted of kicking the engine over with the plugs removed. I remember having to kick the engine over well over 100 times before I saw a dribble returning to the oil tank. I do have a norton type oil filter in the return line so I guess this may have reqired filling before any return to the tank was noted.

I guess you could drop the sump plate and see if any oil is making it down there, this would show if the supply side is working. May also be worth priming the engine with 1/2 pint of oil down the rocker cover, this will fill the sump and give the scavenge side something to suck up.

Last edited by gunner; 07/20/15 3:31 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609411
07/20/15 5:32 pm
07/20/15 5:32 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
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htown Online content
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Magnolia, TX
I can believe it took that many kicks to get a return, especially if the lines and filter were empty. But you should see oil at the OPRV opening after just a few kicks. Or if you a warning light it should go off after a few kicks. It's a good idea to prime the sump with about a cup of oil or so. You can remove the bolt in the timing plug opening in the front of the cases to dump it in if the bike has that feature.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609412
07/20/15 5:42 pm
07/20/15 5:42 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
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BillD47 Offline OP
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BillD47  Offline OP
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Posts: 43
Florida
The pump is now pumping, but I cannot reason what I did to cause it, but here is what I did. I disassembled the complete oil feed line system to the pump, replacing "O" rings, cleaning mating surfaces, blowing out each line, etc., along the way. No obstructions or problems observed here. Removed the SRM pump (a thing of beauty) and did a static run of the pump. It looked good. I deviated from the oil pump assembly instructions here. Rather than putting grease on the ball, placing it on the pump port and fitting the assembly to the spring, I held the ball compressed against the spring in its hole with a feeder gauge and refitted the pump. Once the pump was almost seated, I removed the feeler gauge. Prior to tightening the pump, I connected the feed line oil supply and watched for oil flow from the open, pump inlet port. Once the oil was flowing freely, I secured the pump. Rotating the motor (using the kick start nut) resulted in an immediate flow of oil to/from the open PRV port.
Apparently, the priming problem is corrected, but I cannot put a finger on as to why. No problems were found during disassembly. I could speculate why there was no prime, but the reasons would be just that.
All I did was ensure feed oil was at a working pump. It worked.
Thank you for all of the help.
Bill
PS: In accordance with your suggestion, I will be filling the sump with a little oil to prime the return system for the motor restart.

Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609413
07/20/15 5:51 pm
07/20/15 5:51 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,191
Magnolia, TX
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Magnolia, TX
The mysteries of the BSA A65 lubrication system are many and varied.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609458
07/21/15 3:13 am
07/21/15 3:13 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,676
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy
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Allan Gill  Online Happy
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
The pumps can be a sod to prime when new ( or cleaned ) a drop of oil poured at the inlet of the pump and turned by hand until it comes out of the exit hole helps.

Mount the pump and remove the OPRV and turn the motor over until oil comes out of here. If your on a freshly built motor, you should have been wise enough to have used assembly line on the shells and bushes which would give ample lubrication until the motor is started.

Refit the OPRV and kick over a dozen more times. Remove the sump cover if you want to have certainty. Otherwise I then start the motor.

The return line doesn't bother me unless I don't see any oil return after a short space of time. Can't see no point in priming the sump as any oil to be returned will get picked up and the returning oil will tell you that the oil circuit is fine.


beerchug
Re: SRM Oil Pump Priming Question [Re: BillD47] #609572
07/21/15 8:05 pm
07/21/15 8:05 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,877
Gnashville
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Gnashville
Whatever you did Bill, I'm glad it worked.
I also use a Norton filter adapter in my return line. I always fill the new filter before putting it on after an oil change. As I normally adjust my valves at the same time, I dump about a cup of oil down the push-rod tube to prime the system.
I start kicking, and pretty soon I see good pressure on the gauge. I fire it up, and in no more than a few seconds some air belches out the return pipe, followed by a stream of oil.
I'll probably kick for quite a bit longer before starting once my engine is fresh, though.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"

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