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a 'nuts and bolts question' #604921
06/16/15 4:55 pm
06/16/15 4:55 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Q
queenmonkey Offline OP
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queenmonkey  Offline OP
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Q
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Hi guys i am restoring perhaps my 6th bike but my first british bike - A65 with a T140 forks. I've a well equipped home workshop of tools for the japanese bikes i've done along with assorted sundries - metric everything!

What i really want to know is are all the nuts and bolts on my bike likely to be whitworth sizes and if so what of the threads as it seems there are different types - BSW BSF and BSC?

I ask because i'd like to order an assortment so i can replace as i go but obvioulsy want to buy the write ones!
QM

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Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #604922
06/16/15 4:57 pm
06/16/15 4:57 pm
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,412
Orygone
Boomer Online content

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Boomer  Online Content

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Posts: 3,412
Orygone
First off, what year is your A65?


Bill B...


Boomer
Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: Boomer] #604923
06/16/15 5:00 pm
06/16/15 5:00 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Q
queenmonkey Offline OP
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queenmonkey  Offline OP
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Q
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Hi the frame is '65 but the t140 forks are off an E/F which i think is about 1980?

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #604962
06/16/15 9:38 pm
06/16/15 9:38 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Your bike will have BSF, BSC, NF, BA and Metric fasteners...and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head...

Really.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #604972
06/16/15 10:45 pm
06/16/15 10:45 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,280
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Posts: 4,280
Owego, NY, USA
Wrench sizes is one issue, hardware replacement another. Hardware on the T140 front end will be Unified, which has the same wrench sizes, bolt diameters, and thread densities as SAE or "American" (I don't know what you call it over there - oh yeah, Unified). One thing though, the Unified thread form is slightly different from SAE.

On the engine (also '65 I assume) you're going to find a lot of CEI hardware, mostly 1/4" X 26 tpi, 5/16" X 26 tpi, and 3/8" by 26 tpi. For this hardware you will need a set of British wrenches. They may be marked "BS" or "Whitworth", or both.

You might drive yourself crazy trying to amass "an assortment". If you buy hardware from a parts supplier, ordering by part number, just buy a few extras of whatever you order. Over here we have an outlet called "British Tools and Fasteners", from whom you can buy hardware by diameter, thread density, length, etc., AND they have British thread gauges - along with Metric and SAE thread gauges, an invaluable tool if you decide to buy hardware by spec. I don't know if you have such a place over there, or if you might consider sourcing overseas.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #604989
06/17/15 5:23 am
06/17/15 5:23 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By queenmonkey
frame is '65 but the t140 forks

As said, generally UNF on the forks and CEI (aka 'Cycle' and 'BSC' - British Standard Cycle) on the frame.

As not mentioned so far, BSF (British Standard Fine) on the engine, and the forks drain plugs are 2BA (not interchangeable with either 3/16"UNF, No.10UNF or M5 (5 mm. metric)).

UNF- (and UNC-) threaded fasteners use "AF"-marked tools; in the same way as metric, the measurement refers to Across Flats of the head.

Otoh, Cycle, BSF and BA tools are marked with the shank diameter; e.g. 5/16"UNF, 5/16"Cycle and 5/16"BSF bolts all have the same shank diameter, but a 5/16"UNF bolt will require a 1/2"AF spanner while the Cycle and BSF bolts will require a spanner marked (usually) "5/16 BS" (but not "5/16 W" (5/16" Whitworth)).

This is before you get into 'small hex.' heads ... laughing

Originally Posted By queenmonkey
i'd like to order an assortment so i can replace as i go

What you might need to accept is the easiest way to buy "an assortment" is to buy 'buckets' of fasteners in the appropriate threadforms from a stainless steel fastener supplier. Afaict, old British vehicle restorers are now the largest users of especially Cycle and BSF fasteners and most old British vehicle restorers want stainless.

Unfortunately, this can lead to quality issues. By definition, then stainless Cycle and BSF fasteners have cut, rather than rolled, threads. From long experience, I know that people like Dave & Richard Middleton have the necessary machine tools to turn out high-quality cut threads bigt and they supply some other smaller stainless retailers. But some others make their own Imperial fasteners, and the quality is ... uh ... variable. frown

The alternative is to collect the fasteners that come off the bike and, when you have a bucket-load, get 'em tumbled and zinc-plated.

I would strongly recommend that you invest in a set of screwpitch gauges (e.g. http://stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/content/11-which-thread and scroll down) and, if you don't have it/them already, a way of accurately measuring fastener shank diameters - at least a decent steel rule but micrometer or calipers are better. If you don't already, keep an eye on your local Lidl and Aldi stores, they do inexpensive but good-quality tools regularly. Note that, in addition to the thread chart on the Middletons' site, you can find more comprehensive ones through your preferred internet search engine.

I would also recommend acquiring some taps and dies for the threads - to start with, say, 2BA, 1/4"UNF and 5/16"UNF, 1/4"Cycle, 5/16"Cycle and 3/8"Cycle, and 5/16" BSF. Reason is, mainly, you're dealing with 35-year-old threads on the forks and 50-year-old threads on the rest of the bike, some swarf is bound to have collected in particularly blind holes ... but mainly you're dealing with the depredations of mainly d.p.o. frown If you get into the habit of running a tap with a bit of grease on the end into each threaded hole, you will 99%-certain be staggered at the amount of general crap - mainly old sealants - that comes out on the end of it. shocked Otoh, if you simply push new fasteners into holes you haven't cleaned first, you will do some damage at some point, guaranteed. frown

Finally, bookmark http://stainlessbits.com/link12.html, you'll find it an invaluable reference. Only thing to watch is, because the compiler was American, sometimes he gets small threads wrong - e.g. specifying No.10UNF ("10-32" in the US) instead of the correct 2BA.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: Stuart] #605070
06/17/15 4:24 pm
06/17/15 4:24 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Q
queenmonkey Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
queenmonkey  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Q
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 67
England
Oh god what have i done??!! and i thought buying a British Project had the advatage of being simpler, if only the availability of parts? I've inherited boxes of my old uncles tools (relaegated to the back of the workshop) so i think there going to come in handy - this includes taps and dies in WD boxes, me thinks i'm going to have to pull them out from the back of the workshop and dust them down!

Guys a big 'thank you' for your advice (especially you Stuart) i will follow it. I'm also thinking that i going to befriend the chaps as Anglian Fasteners (large fastener shop in my home town) into joining me in thread identification.
QM

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #605084
06/17/15 5:51 pm
06/17/15 5:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,531
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Online content
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Richrd  Online Content
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Posts: 2,531
Springfield Nebraska
but think of the fun you'll have when your "expert" neighbor comes over. you hold up what looks like a 9/16 wrench then tell him it's a 1/4. Then your #0 socket will be about ten mm and the #10 socket will be about one mm.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
couple of beesas a ducati
and the Snake Bike
Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #605137
06/18/15 6:39 am
06/18/15 6:39 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,512
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Online content
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AngloBike  Online Content
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A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,512
UK Berks
There shouldn't be ANY metric on that bike.

Not quite sure how the (OIF) T140 forks will fit a (non OIF) BSA frame as the T140 Stem is shorter than the Triumph non OIF.
Maybe BSA ( who designed the OIF) stuck to one size

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: AngloBike] #605144
06/18/15 7:32 am
06/18/15 7:32 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By AngloBike
There shouldn't be ANY metric on that bike.

Originally Posted By queenmonkey
t140 forks are off an E/F which i think is about 1980?

Standard switch cluster screws are all metric.

Originally Posted By AngloBike
BSA ( who designed the OIF)

Oif was first drawn by Brian Jones at Umberslade Hall and then developed for production under Dr. Stefan Bauer, who was Director of Engineering(?) there.

Even if BSA used the same headstock length on its dry frames as Triumph on theirs, it isn't impossible to fit an oif steering stem, just difficult.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #605158
06/18/15 8:43 am
06/18/15 8:43 am
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,812
Seattle
Spark plugs are metric.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #605308
06/19/15 9:01 am
06/19/15 9:01 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
B
BillD47 Offline
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BillD47  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
Florida
For a wealth of information about British motorcycle fasteners by part number try the website stainlessbits.com/link12.html. Many thanks to the people who created it.

Re: a 'nuts and bolts question' [Re: queenmonkey] #605329
06/19/15 2:02 pm
06/19/15 2:02 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,177
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,177
New Jersey USA
BTW--the company that compiled the stainlessbits listings no longer exists.
The website could disappear at any moment.
My advice would be to download it (and for belt and braces also print it off) while it is still around.
HTH


Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


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