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Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! #601758
05/28/15 6:46 pm
05/28/15 6:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Toronto, Canada
My 1969 A65T has an oil disappearing trick. In the past I've had some issues surrounding the whole oil pressure warning light thing, wet sumping, blown by, etc... yada, yada, yada... who hasn't. All of these have been resolved - or so it seems crazy.

My latest mystery is a half full oil tank with no symptoms of oil loss. I've been watching my oil level lately with due diligence because of my last "bathing of the rear tire with oil from the breather" issue. Today I emptied the sump thinking that there would be an excess of oil. NOT! The perfect amount was found. One week ago I had a litre more in the tank. And this is without starting or riding the bike during that time.

What I have done mechanically is... New rings in a new bore. New guides, valves, springs, etc. A leak down test proves positive. A BSA cast oil pump was also added. Everything is as oil tight as you can get on a Brit bike. And it runs great. When the bike is ridden there is no smoke, no loss of oil during operation.

Anyone got answers... Poltergeist!

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Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #601774
05/28/15 8:34 pm
05/28/15 8:34 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,936
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Central Virginia
So, three quarts (Liters) of oil in the oil tank, and a small amount in the sump.

Bike isn't ridden for a week. Oil is checked again, and is a quart low. Sump is checked and has the same amount of oil it had before - there is nowhere near a quart.

In a universe that doesn't intersect with other quantum dimensions, there are only three cavities capable of holding that much oil:

1) The Primary case. There is no designed path for oil to get from the tank to the primary, however.

2) The Transmission. Again, no designated path for oil.

3) The Timing case. Oil CAN leak into there, but there are weep holes and such that if a quart of oil went there, it would be all over the floor.

4) An especially absorbent rug or rag on the garage floor? But I suppose it is bare ....

So someone's got your oil. Don't NOBODY leave dis room!!

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #601782
05/28/15 9:36 pm
05/28/15 9:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,360
SE Ohio
No Name Man Offline

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Almost certainly blowin out the breather, Bola...

Bill E


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
95 Trident
Too much moderation is bad for you.

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #601787
05/28/15 11:05 pm
05/28/15 11:05 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,527
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Owego, NY, USA
Bola, are you sure you checked the tank immediately before putting it up for a week?

I also have a fresh engine as of last August, with a cast-iron oil pump. It has never blown as much as a puff of smoke from the first startup, and it runs great. There is no wetsumping at all, but it does use oil during operation. I am however noticing less oil consumption this season; I figure I'm at about the 1000 mile mark by now (no speedo/odo). Last year it was using a quart every couple hundred miles. Burning, vaporizing, I don't know. Plugs look good too, no fouling.



Last edited by Mark Z; 05/28/15 11:08 pm.

Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Mark Z] #601790
05/28/15 11:37 pm
05/28/15 11:37 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By Mark Z
Bola, are you sure you checked the tank immediately before putting it up for a week?


I sure did. Not just with the dip stick but stuck my finger in there. Today when I checked with finger (and dip stick) there was certainly a litre/quart missing. Oil thieving gremlins are about!

There is no oil on my shop floor. I'll be starting the bike up and using it tomorrow to see what might be in store.

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #601805
05/29/15 3:28 am
05/29/15 3:28 am
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Ger B Offline
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So you checked the oil level in the tank immediately after riding.
Then you checked the oil level again after 24 hours standing still, and you missed a liter.

What you should do now:

1- Start the engine.
2- Run it for five to ten minutes.
3- Stop the engine.
4- Immediately after stop: check the oil level in the tank again.

Chance is great that you will find all your oil is back in the tank. Proceed with step-5. If the oil is not back, go to step-7.

5- On your computer go to BritBike.
6- Read everything you can find about wet sumping.

I'm quite sure that wetsumping is the only issue you have.
I will not even name it a problem, because most A65's do it.

7- On your computer go to BritBike.
8- In this very thread tell us you still have no oil back.




Ger B

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Ger B] #601936
05/29/15 6:10 pm
05/29/15 6:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By Ger B

8- In this very thread tell us you still have no oil back.


I did as you said which was the plan all along. Still the same. The oil has not returned to the tank, but the bike runs great. confused

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Ger B] #601939
05/29/15 6:24 pm
05/29/15 6:24 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By Ger B

I will not even name it a problem, because most A65's do it.


Well, that certainly excuses everything.
I think the BSA execs invested in oil stocks instead of investing in a better design.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: DavidP] #601957
05/29/15 8:36 pm
05/29/15 8:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 313
Bowral NSW Australia
John Goodwin Offline
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Bowral NSW Australia
It's got to be ozmosis or an anurism in your return line!
You could also check your primary chaincase, maybe a previous owner decided not to use an oil seal behind the engine sprocket?
Do you leave your bike on the center or side stand?
Do you let your bike run while stationary on the side stand?
I'd drain the primary chain case and see how much you get out of that.


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: John Goodwin] #601987
05/29/15 11:32 pm
05/29/15 11:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By John Goodwin
It's got to be ozmosis or an anurism in your return line!


I like that! An aneurysm in the return line. Finally a scientific answer. bigt The bike is never stored on the side stand and all the appropriate seals are where they should be; placed there by me. But I will definitely drain the primary to see if this mystery solves itself. But I do suspect the clutch would have trouble functioning in an oil bath. smile

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: John Goodwin] #601990
05/29/15 11:39 pm
05/29/15 11:39 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Online content

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By John Goodwin

You could also check your primary chaincase, maybe a previous owner decided not to use an oil seal behind the engine sprocket?
I'd drain the primary chain case and see how much you get out of that.

+1 to that.
Mine has been modified to breathe through the primary, as a Triumph. When she wet sumps, that's where the oil ends up.
However, it shouldn't happen if your seal is good and still there. Worth checking anyway.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602018
05/30/15 4:35 am
05/30/15 4:35 am
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Posts: 5,963
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Ger B Offline
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Quote:
I think the BSA execs invested in oil stocks instead of investing in a better design.

Go to Birmingham and give'm a piece of your mind. grin

The primary is indeed the only reservoir which can hold the non returned oil.

How it gets there is a question.

When the return pump works sufficently, will it get there when the engine has no oil seal at the sprocket?

Do you see oil returning into the tank at all, when the engine runs?
Is the suction pipe of the return pump in the correct position with it's suction end through the hole in the strainer?
It's supposed to draw from the bottom cover of the crankcase.

With both the return line to the tank and the oil feed to the rocker cover disconnected, you could try
to blow some air through the return line at the location where it is fed by the return pump and see where the air comes out.




Ger B

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Ger B] #602024
05/30/15 4:55 am
05/30/15 4:55 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 63
Denmark
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Rick Offline
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Denmark
Very odd. Constriction/cavitation on the feed side? Have you got an oil filter in play? If so, where is it?

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602063
05/30/15 1:25 pm
05/30/15 1:25 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,351
Magnolia, TX
htown Offline
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Magnolia, TX
My Commando filled it's primary with oil even though a fairly new crank seal was in place.
Happened after it was inadvertly started when it was badly wet-sumped. The primary started leaking oil all over was how I noticed. The crankcase pressure from starting the engine may have forced the oil in there or it could have slowly happened over time. I could see that if you then ran the engine for a while that the scavenge pump would clear the crankcase but still leave the oil in the primary.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Rick] #602088
05/30/15 6:24 pm
05/30/15 6:24 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Rick
Have you got an oil filter in play? If so, where is it?

Yup. It's on the return line, but oil is returning to the tank as it should. A steady, solid trickle.

Originally Posted By Rick
Very odd. Constriction/cavitation on the feed side?

I too considered this. Some learned builders I know don't like filters for this very reason. Issues with oil constriction/oil build up... then, "what do you know"... through the breather it goes.

I appreciate the input from the forum but whining about this won't get me anywhere. I should, finally once and for all realize that I'm dealing with 1950's engineering. And any rebuilding/renewing to make my 1969 A65 more improved is simply an unrealistic endeavour. My frustration to correct something that isn't broke (most of the time) should be pushed aside to embrace post war technology with all it's short comings. After all... the bike runs great... looks great... has more soul than most modern day machines... and always gets comments during an outing. I love my piece of shit BSA! laughing




Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602100
05/30/15 9:28 pm
05/30/15 9:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,351
Magnolia, TX
htown Offline
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so did you ever look in the primary?


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: htown] #602105
05/30/15 10:14 pm
05/30/15 10:14 pm
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By htown
so did you ever look in the primary?


Not yet. Tomorrow.

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602107
05/30/15 10:30 pm
05/30/15 10:30 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,936
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Central Virginia
That sure is a pretty bike. My own A65, as well as some others like Semper Gumby's and Man with No Name's, have run periods of tens of thousands of miles without having a funky weird problem, and yours will too as soon as you get this problem sorted ....

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602124
05/31/15 4:49 am
05/31/15 4:49 am
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Ger B Offline
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That's a beauty bigt

But keep in mind when you discover the oil in the primary: it's not supposed to be there.
The return pump (scavenging pump) is supposed to pump all oil from the crankcase back to the tank.
So you have to find out why it doesn't.


Ger B

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Ger B] #602156
05/31/15 11:35 am
05/31/15 11:35 am
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Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Toronto, Canada
The primary contains no excess oil. Only the correct amount of ATF that I placed there myself. I'm moving on from this silly mystery. confused

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #602171
05/31/15 12:48 pm
05/31/15 12:48 pm
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Ger B Offline
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Can it be you think you have a problem where you don't have problem?

The oil does not evaporate. If it does it stinks to high heaven and your exhausts blow blue fumes.

You do not have an oil filter which deaerated and thus filled itself with an amount of oil which will have lowered the level in the tank?

Ride that bike, I would say. It's worth enjoying it...


Ger B

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #603723
06/09/15 11:02 am
06/09/15 11:02 am
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,360
SE Ohio
No Name Man Offline

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SE Ohio
Hey Bola...two questions that don't have anything to do with oil (unless you have ten gallons of it in the bags):
How do you keep the saddle bags out of the spokes?
What do you have in em to keep the front wheel off the ground?

Bill E


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
95 Trident
Too much moderation is bad for you.

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: No Name Man] #603837
06/09/15 11:01 pm
06/09/15 11:01 pm
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Posts: 588
Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By No Name Man
Hey Bola...two questions that don't have anything to do with oil (unless you have ten gallons of it in the bags):
How do you keep the saddle bags out of the spokes?
What do you have in em to keep the front wheel off the ground?

Bill E


I welded some brace pieces to the rear fender support rail to keep the bags away from the rear wheel. Works very well.

No weight in the bags. My drive is on a slight incline. The bike normally sits with the front wheel on the ground with a flat surface.

Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #604874
06/16/15 11:21 am
06/16/15 11:21 am
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Posts: 4,081
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
you said" regarding oil return "Yup. It's on the return line, but oil is returning to the tank as it should. A steady, solid trickle."

This is not the. correct state of oil return, because the oil return pump has twice the capacity of the feed you should see oil and air or gulps of oil if the sump is clearing properly.

Check after a decent run, , look at the return flow , if its still a slow steady trickle and not spurts or gulps, your return side of the pump isnt working correctly.

it is normal for a steady flow on the return when the bike is first started , usually a little extra oil has entered the sump and takes a minute or so to clear.

Is your filter between the oil manifold and the rocker feed , or is the rocker feed on the motor side of the filter, if it is , this may be causing some wet sumping, the rocker feed should be after a cartridge filter, so that all the returning oil is passed through the filter, otherwise the rocker feed creates a short circuit.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Where the BLEEP does the oil go?! [Re: Bola] #604890
06/16/15 1:16 pm
06/16/15 1:16 pm
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Ger B Offline
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Quote:
My drive is on a slight incline

If your front wall is 90 degrees to the horizontal ... a slight incline?
I must admit I'm from a flat country... grin

Can the incline explain the oil that does not return?



Ger B

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