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Twice the problems #599572
05/15/15 7:00 am
05/15/15 7:00 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
This thing is sitting in my shop.My race bike rider and me dragged it back from Pa last week..He also picked up an elephant skull, but that's not bike related. grin

Supposedly I'm building this into a safe LSR bike.It would run in 1350cc gas altered/open class.The record for this class at Maine and Ohio is less than 140 MPH . Lowbrow has a 152 MPH record at Bonneville.
150 MPH for a naked frame LSR bike requires about 120 HP...I do know how to build reliable 60 hp gas 650 engines.. The engines is the easy part, the drive line and frame modification are more difficult... And about $10,000.................

[Linked Image]


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
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Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599589
05/15/15 10:31 am
05/15/15 10:31 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
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ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
sonny route ,borris murray ran twin engines in drag racing, this is interesting - stock clutch/gearbox, mild engine
he comments idles at about 600 rpm

[Linked Image]

Last edited by ken sak; 05/15/15 10:36 am. Reason: info
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599607
05/15/15 12:19 pm
05/15/15 12:19 pm
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 348
Irene, South Africa
robcurrie Offline
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Posts: 348
Irene, South Africa
It looks like the exhausts should be swapped around to clear the front carbs?

Rob C

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599620
05/15/15 1:37 pm
05/15/15 1:37 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
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ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
and add a supercharger

[Linked Image]

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599623
05/15/15 2:09 pm
05/15/15 2:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
N
noisy norton Offline
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N

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
Twice the problems? I'd call it twice the fun. Don Sligers twin Enfield (750s I think) was the first naked bike over 200. Good target.

[Linked Image]


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: Twice the problems [Re: noisy norton] #599628
05/15/15 3:01 pm
05/15/15 3:01 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by noisy norton
Twice the problems? I'd call it twice the fun. Don Sligers twin Enfield (750s I think) was the first naked bike over 200. Good target.


Well for sure twice the cost...a pair of 650 N/A Triumphs on gas is gonna be nowhere near 200 mph....As Noisy Norton knows from the JJ, I'm not too enthusiastic about using the stock stretched frame...But it is what it is on the available budget.
I think there's a few things to consider...How the engine are "timed". Do you phase them 360 or 180 degrees apart ?...And the drive system .I see they all appear the run a chain or belt from the front engine to the rear engine and then from the rear engine to the clutch.I think it's better to have both both engines drive a common jack shaft and then from the jack shaft to the clutch..But I don't know if this can be packaged properly...The idea here is to be efficient and not lose too much power through the drive train ..

Last edited by Hillbilly bike; 05/15/15 3:03 pm.

I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599670
05/15/15 9:17 pm
05/15/15 9:17 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,436
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

DOPE
kevin roberts  Offline

DOPE

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,436
ohio, usa
pictures of the elephant skull!!!


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Twice the problems [Re: robcurrie] #599715
05/16/15 6:20 am
05/16/15 6:20 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by robcurrie
It looks like the exhausts should be swapped around to clear the front carbs?

Rob C


Those are just pipes I had laying around. The front engine needs to be raised up about an inch in relation to the rear engine for the carbs to clear properly.

Kevin, I don't have skull photos...but it was different...


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599750
05/16/15 12:54 pm
05/16/15 12:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
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ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
how about rotating the head? I thought I read somewhere sonny used 90 degrees apart

.quote I see they all appear the run a chain or belt from the front engine to the rear engine and then from the rear engine to the clutch.I think it's better to have both both engines drive a common jack shaft and then from the jack shaft to the clutch..But I don't know if this can be packaged properly...The idea here is to be efficient and not lose too much power through the drive train ..quote

why don't you think it would be efficient? 2 engines power on the back crank -must be up to it

Re: Twice the problems [Re: ken sak] #599764
05/16/15 3:41 pm
05/16/15 3:41 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Some do rotate heads....A chain or belt drive normally has a pulling side and a slack side. Like a Triumph unit or Harley with a slack adjuster on the bottom run of the primary chain. With two engine coupled by chain nothing is perfectly timed between the two engines and I think the chain is subject to a lot of harmonics whipping the chain . This wastes power and creates vibration..I'm no engineer so I'm just making opinion...
In reality there's no room for any design but what is typical used.


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599770
05/16/15 5:03 pm
05/16/15 5:03 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
N
noisy norton Offline
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N

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
There is a way to couple the engines without harmonics or destroying chains. I don't know it but get a hold of Tyler and he'll tell you how. In the meantime I'll have to stop looking at this thread. It breaks my heart to think that frame will be scrapped.


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: Twice the problems [Re: noisy norton] #599777
05/16/15 5:49 pm
05/16/15 5:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by noisy norton
It breaks my heart to think that frame will be scrapped.


I never said the frame will be scrapped... I have expressed my doubts on using it because they are flexible...And Alp added not only flexible but subject to fracturing from the stresses.The builder of the "Parasite", one of the first dual Triumph dragsters mentions cracking hard tail frame rails.
I believe a competitive bike needs to be reliable, easy to ride, stable and rigid. We're not running in vintage so the frame heritage isn't important. Another guy has asked to buy the frame from from me. If you like the frame so much then make me an offer.
Lowbrow uses belts from what I see. Routt may have timed the engine at 90 degrees. Lowbrow and "Parasite" and a few other timed the engines to run together...I assume that means right cylinders, front and rear, fire at the same time.


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599785
05/16/15 8:54 pm
05/16/15 8:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
BritBike Forum member
ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
If the the hardtails crack and the rules allow,get or make a new one made up from the front downtube back,
the bottom rails prob have been joined anyway.
I can remember a twin side by side engine street bike that had the engines pistons rising and falling together
and he said the vibrations were bad,and he changed it

90 degrees - like the offset crank 1 pistons stopped at TDC the other near full piston speed

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599787
05/16/15 10:39 pm
05/16/15 10:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 426
Iowa
konon Offline

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Posts: 426
Iowa
I would think you'd want the front engine firing on left and back engine on right to counter each other.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1972 Rickman 125
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599803
05/17/15 6:57 am
05/17/15 6:57 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
BritBike Forum member
ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia

Run front motor off rh side? to jackshaft then short distance to rear engine

[Linked Image]

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599804
05/17/15 7:02 am
05/17/15 7:02 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
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ken sak  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
raised front motor

[Linked Image]

Re: Twice the problems [Re: konon] #599805
05/17/15 7:06 am
05/17/15 7:06 am
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
K
ken sak Offline
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ken sak  Offline
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K

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 181
queensland australia
you would still have the problem of all 4 rising and falling
together

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #599833
05/17/15 12:07 pm
05/17/15 12:07 pm
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 31
south ester pa
D
DanDaughenbaugh Offline
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D

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 31
south ester pa
I guess we were bidding against each other, Got me in the last second

Re: Twice the problems [Re: DanDaughenbaugh] #599837
05/17/15 12:40 pm
05/17/15 12:40 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Then you were bidding against my race bike rider. The bike is worth the money depending on what a person intends to do with it.



I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #600869
05/23/15 4:33 pm
05/23/15 4:33 pm
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
Zombie Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
I thought that was you... Glad to see you posted that cool factor machine here.

I'm no rocket surgeon but chain drive, and same side firing sounds like a bucket full of whipped chains, and a shop full of welding materials.

I messed around w/ twin 50cc single cylinder engines for awhile, and came to realize that ALL multi cylinder engines must be hard joined, and opposing firing orders. Think about it. No production multi cylinder engine uses any sort of buffer between cylinders. They all uses one cylinder to force the other(s) thru the cycle.

I would seriously think about a gear drive joining the engines. It's as close to a hard join as you can get.

I may be WAY off in this but I'm sure the current multi engine bikes can provide a clue.


edit... Whatever you come up with, I'm sure will be cooler than anything else around for MILES!
Looking forward to seeing what you do w/ this. beerchug

RZ

Last edited by Zombie; 05/23/15 4:36 pm.
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Zombie] #600933
05/24/15 6:48 am
05/24/15 6:48 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Most All the successful Triumph dual engine drag and LSR bikes have the engines firing as one.Some are right front and left rear firing together or right and right.
It h to do with the way two engines are linked by chain or belt and the pushing/pulling action...
A gear drive is wonderful but the cost is totally out of my budget.It would require a train of gears on precision centers enclosed in a oil tight case which is beyond my experience.
Other than engine machine work everything is done with hand tools and an WW2 lathe in my shop.
100 bucks worth of O ring chain and another 100 bucks worth of sprockets will build a workable chain drive. Properly done and adjusted a chain is as efficient as gears.....Also considering linking the engines with a tooth belt that would offer some dampening effect.


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #600943
05/24/15 8:06 am
05/24/15 8:06 am
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
Zombie Offline
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Zombie  Offline
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Florida PanHandle
I sure understand that.

If you went into belts I imagine there are some easy solutions to using some of the heavy duty Harley primary parts.

I'm sure it will be a challenge, and hopefully more fun than frustration.

Re: Twice the problems [Re: Zombie] #600960
05/24/15 12:16 pm
05/24/15 12:16 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,017
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
I removed the engines and had a good look at the frame...I'm going to work with it, some gussets and trusses.


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #600978
05/24/15 1:58 pm
05/24/15 1:58 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
N
noisy norton Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 765
Riverside, CA.
Delighted to hear that!


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
Re: Twice the problems [Re: Hillbilly bike] #601036
05/24/15 8:38 pm
05/24/15 8:38 pm
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,459
Florida PanHandle
Zombie Offline
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Zombie  Offline
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Florida PanHandle
Is the frame marked? do you know what it started life as?

I was thinking about this last night, and it occurred to me that balancing the carbs would be the toughest real issue in balancing the engines to run synced up.

Then the idea of spinning a cylinder head to put all of your intakes in the center, and making an intake manifold to run a single 4bbl carb. It would be a great deal easier to set up one Quadrajet carb. than to tune 4 mikunis or whatever. Maybe an old Weidland intake could be the donor manifold/carb mount.

Just throwing some ideas around.

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