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#597175 - 04/29/15 5:39 pm Lightning "Clubman" for sale ***  
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VicCyclone Offline
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Seen the Lightning "Clubman for sale on UK *-bay?

http://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/181726840875?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Engine and frame numbers quoted as :-Frame no A50B 8281

ENG A65DC 5005. Seller claims a genuine clubman "one of 203" Now there is absolutely nothing on this bike to suggest it was ever in Clubman trim and there were a large number of Lightning and Lightning Rocket models sold with the DC suffix in 64 and 65.

Anyone able to check the dispatch books for this one?

Last edited by VicCyclone; 04/30/15 7:41 am.

VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

2009 HD FXDC
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#597207 - 04/29/15 11:25 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
Joined: Jul 2001
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Lannis Online content
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Lannis  Online Content

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Central Virginia
Clubman experts unite and give us the real story!

Tempests => GTOs

Mustang => Boss 302

Mustang => Mustang GT

Barracuda => Hemi Cuda

Oldsmobile Cutlass => Olds 4-4-2

Chevelle => SS 396

Triumph Bonneville => Steve McQueen bike

Honda 350 => "Von Dutch" paint

Lightning => Lightning Clubman

People have been cheating on "Specials" for 45 years now and it's not likely to stop anytime soon ...

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#597326 - 04/30/15 9:24 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Owego, NY, USA
After looking at the pictures, my reaction was, does it really matter if it's a Clubman or not?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#597351 - 05/01/15 2:37 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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gollywog Offline
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It certainly would not matter to me. This is because I completely fail to empathise with the cashed up rich kids who throw huge money at these so called "Icons".

Sorry, but I can't help having a grudging respect for the faker.

IMHO Too many guys come into this hobby thinking you can just throw a bunch of cash at it and ride off smiling into the sunset.

They're the ones who wind up on the new Taiwanese Triumphs whining about how the old bikes leak and are unreliable.

Then when you hit them it's like it's your fault...go figure!

Last edited by gollywog; 05/01/15 3:22 am.

signiture
#597375 - 05/01/15 8:47 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Mark Z]  
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VicCyclone Offline
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It doesn't really matter to me either I've got a Clubman; albeit one that BSA probably never built and have no interest in buying this one. However having owned a number of A65s and built an A50 Clubman from scratch I am genuinely interested as to whether or not this bike was dispatched from the factory in clubman trim. If it was, then there is nothing left on the bike of the clubman equipment you would expect to see. I have met a number of people who believe that the DC suffix means that the bike was a clubman, it does not; BSA certainly sold the Lightning in the UK with the CR box as an option. I used to own one in the 1970s


VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

2009 HD FXDC
#597419 - 05/01/15 2:50 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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malla1962 Offline
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UK and michigan
whatever it is it has the wrong front wheel lol.

#597437 - 05/01/15 3:57 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: gollywog]  
Joined: Sep 2002
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Alex Offline
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Alex  Offline

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Seattle
Originally Posted By gollywog

They're the ones who wind up on the new Taiwanese Triumphs whining about how the old bikes leak and are unreliable.


Sorry to get all picky, but you started it: Triumph does not make any bikes in Taiwan.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
#597452 - 05/01/15 6:53 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: gollywog]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I'm no expert on this but from the period photos I have seen the stock lightnings used the flat ( later style) yokes, where as the clubmans used the drop yoke like the star models.

I could be wrong, and besides after 40+ years any of these parts could have been changed multiple times. Even if it isn't genuine it has the makings for a nice replica, for its condition though it's making a lot of money so far.


beerchug
#597453 - 05/01/15 6:55 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
Joined: Jun 2007
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gollywog Offline
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Australia
Apology accepted Alex.


signiture
#597456 - 05/01/15 6:59 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Allan Gill]  
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VicCyclone Offline
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Most A50/65 models from 62 -65 use the dropped top yoke. The only exceptions as far as I know were the Cyclone off road model and the Spitfire Hornet which used the flat yoke.

It certainly is fetching good money for the condition it's in


VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

2009 HD FXDC
#597461 - 05/01/15 7:58 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Mark Z]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Mark Z Online content
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Mark Z  Online Content
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Owego, NY, USA
Originally Posted By Mark Z
After looking at the pictures, my reaction was, does it really matter if it's a Clubman or not?


All I meant was, if I were looking for a resto project, and I really wanted a Clubman, I don't think I'd buy that one, genuine or not.




Last edited by Mark Z; 05/01/15 8:47 pm.

Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
#597469 - 05/01/15 8:40 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Mark Z]  
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John Goodwin Online content
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Bowral NSW Australia
I started to reply to this twice but didn't hit the submit button.

I don't know for sure if I had a true Lightning Clubman back in the day. It was an A65LC engine number for sure, so was it a lightning Clubman or a Lightning with a Close ratio box and just a facsimile of a LC?
I'd like to know just out of interest.

All Roy Bacon's books do is only make matters worse how he lists the Lightning Clubmans as A65LC in his specification pages in "Twins & Triples", yet doesn't even mention them in the Engine & Frame numbers listings.
No mention of specific engine numbers in his BSA Twin restoration book either.
I've only just got a copy of "BSA unit construction Twins the complete story" and there is a reference to the Lightning Clubman as having an engine number of A65D so maybe I have accept that as fact and that mine was a Lightning with a close ratio box and then made to look like it was an LC

Either way, even if it's the real deal there's a lot of money to be spent on it and the bidding doesn't look like it's stopped yet.
What would it be worth properly restored?
If you've just got to have a Lightning Clubman it's a viable restoration project, though being an A65 I tend to think it's going to be a labour of love with minimal margins if just done to make a profit
Personally I think while rarer than the Spitfires I'd sooner have my MK II with the hassle of the GP's or not as I've seen a couple of well behaved easy starting MK 2's on YouTube that seem to fly in the face of the normal "Pull'em off" attitudes.

And as for giving forgers any kind of kudos, come on!
They are second only to scumbag drug dealers or pedophiles regardless of how good a job they do. Absolute R soles in my book.


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
#597542 - 05/02/15 6:24 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: John Goodwin]  
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VicCyclone Offline
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John

There was a thread a couple of years back on the subject of how many Lightning Clubman models were made and engine numbers. - Can't find it at the moment. As I recall there was some mention of a small batch made in 66. A65LC as a prefix would mean to me, a 66 engine with a C/R box, so not sure as to whether there was a batch made in 66 with that code. All genuine Clubman models from 64/65 will have A65DC codes. The point I was making at the top of this thread is that it is a common misconception that any engine A50 or A65, with a DC suffix came from a Clubman. In simple terms the rule is Clubman = DC, DC does not = Clubman.

With you on the forgers which is why it's so important that we share our knowledge on here to dispel the myths.


VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

2009 HD FXDC
#597544 - 05/02/15 6:52 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



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Stone Creek OH USA
IMO, a Lightning Clubman should have an engine code of A65DC. But Lightning Rockets exist with that engine code as do Lightnings. You need to check the dispatch records to verify. The differences between the 3 models were mostly cosmetic. All 3 share the same forks/yokes with a droop top yoke.

There are "references" to 1966 Lightning Clubmans being built using engine code A65LC. Supposedly 29 were built. I am not convinced this is true.

You also have some 1969 engines with engine code A65LC built before the S/N was changed to denote year/month.

The generally accepted number is 190 were built, in 64/65 model years.

This isn't a real one, but it looks great and is fun to ride:


Last edited by Rich B; 05/02/15 6:54 am.

Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#597574 - 05/02/15 10:03 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Alex]  
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Bodie Online content
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Bodie  Online Content
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Austraaalya
Originally Posted By Alex
Originally Posted By gollywog

They're the ones who wind up on the new Taiwanese Triumphs whining about how the old bikes leak and are unreliable.


Sorry to get all picky, but you started it: Triumph does not make any bikes in Taiwan.


shocked Huh ! .. So Hinckley's ain't built in Asia ? ....
... Well i'll be f@#ed ! , So how come they don't leak oil then ?

#597578 - 05/02/15 10:50 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Bodie]  
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John Goodwin Online content
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Bowral NSW Australia
I feel a bit better now knowing my bike was 99% positive in being a lightning with a close ration box and not a really rare bird.
I had to swap out the gearbox cluster not knowing it was a close ratio box. It had clutch slip in 3rd gear only!!! blush
I kept thinking there was something wrong with the clutch until the number of stripped teeth accumulated in the well under the selector leaving me with only 1-3rd and then later really wrecking the engine when the left hand rod let go on a high speed return home from Ipswich.
That was a really long push of several miles to get it back home but was younger and fitter then!
The bike had ace bars but the rear sets were ridgy didge after market ones with alloy mounting plates both sides.
Must have been someones idea to put together a Clubman look alike but with some extras.
The 5 gallon alloy tank used to look brilliant when I got stuck into it with the Solvol Autsol.
Happy days!
Looks like it's got the cranked kick start from the LC.
My input was the clipons and the high level pipes with 4" cooling clamps! short revese cone megas and the blue repainted frame, velocity stacks on the monoblocs and the black fibre glass racing front guard.
I thought I was Bill Ivy.
Wish I'd been better with the camera back then.


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
#597658 - 05/02/15 10:00 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: John Goodwin]  
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 309
John Goodwin Online content
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John Goodwin  Online Content
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Bowral NSW Australia
blush

Just found in the Roy Bacon "BSA Twin Restoration" book while looking for any info on the "Silentbloc" bearings a clear listing of the Lightning Clubman machines as having an A65DC engine number.
I can die happy now knowing I only blew up just a regular nothing too special Lightning whistle


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
#597660 - 05/02/15 10:03 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: Rich B]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,056
Lannis Online content
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Lannis  Online Content

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Central Virginia
Originally Posted By Rich B
IMO, a Lightning Clubman should have an engine code of A65DC. But Lightning Rockets exist with that engine code as do Lightnings. You need to check the dispatch records to verify. The differences between the 3 models were mostly cosmetic. All 3 share the same forks/yokes with a droop top yoke.

There are "references" to 1966 Lightning Clubmans being built using engine code A65LC. Supposedly 29 were built. I am not convinced this is true.

You also have some 1969 engines with engine code A65LC built before the S/N was changed to denote year/month.

The generally accepted number is 190 were built, in 64/65 model years.

This isn't a real one, but it looks great and is fun to ride:



This is, has been, and always will be a classy-looking bike!!

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#597684 - 05/03/15 3:46 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: John Goodwin]  
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Posts: 74
Mebbo Offline
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Mebbo  Offline
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Sydney, Australia
John,
Another source is the BSA Owners Club UK engine and frame listing on their website. This states that 1965 A65DC was both Lightning and Lightning Clubman. No Lightning Clubmans in 1964. 1966 was A65LC only and was only the Lightning Clubman (the Lightning was just A65L). In 1969 a Lightning had A65LC but the numbers started at 00101, not 101. So you may well have had a real one.
Don't know if their listing is dead accurate, but I've had problems with Bacon's accuracy with other BSAs....
FWIW
BTW welcome to the BSA NSW club!
Mebbo

#597775 - 05/03/15 4:06 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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Posts: 172
gollywog Offline
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Australia
"And as for giving forgers any kind of kudos, come on!
They are second only to scumbag drug dealers or paedophiles regardless of how good a job they do.
Absolute R soles in my book."
I just wonder, does this bias extend to replacement parts and after market upgrades? Does it frown on:
New AMAL Carbs?
Electronic ignition?
Fresh tyres?
All after market or “pattern” parts, (so that you can only use alleged NOS parts.)?
Modifications like SRM crank conversions? Etc, etc.....
Or does it just mean that you have got to have frame and engine numbers (not so hard to fake) that coincide with some apparently rather dated, idealistic and rubbery restoration guides?(I do have most of these.)
Not having a go here, just genuinely curious as to the precise definition of fake and forgery in the context of our hobby.
Perhaps it depends on whether we are out to build museum exhibits or practical road going machines that can perform safely and reliably in modern traffic conditions.
I know which I prefer.
IMHO-History is a pack of lies. Written by winners and read by losers."

Last edited by gollywog; 05/04/15 3:05 am.

signiture
#598158 - 05/06/15 6:06 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Posts: 8,887
Scotland
There are 2 articles on Lightning Clubmans in June's Classic Bike Guide, one on the restoration of an original (not enough in the article to verify this but no alloy rims on the before or after photos, mention of a close ratio box with rearsets and reverse camplate but nothing to confirm the bike as found had them) and a 69 std Lightning changed to being a replica.

#598160 - 05/06/15 6:15 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: kommando]  
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,950
Stone Creek OH USA
John,

LC's used a standard cam plate. Shifter was bent to clear kick starter and installed "backwards" from a normal A65. So I would question that part of the article.......

Just sayin' grin


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#598162 - 05/06/15 6:25 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
It has the bent and reversed gear lever which means a reverse cam plate would give you the down for first, but the article then goes on to say the changes were to give the up for first pattern preferred by racers. A very odd and confusing article, but sadly the normal std for these comics. As the restorer has put a SM Mk2 on the back I doubt its ever going above 50mph wink.

#598197 - 05/06/15 11:56 am Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Rich B Online happy
Rich B  Online Happy



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,950
Stone Creek OH USA
Originally Posted By kommando
It has the bent and reversed gear lever which means a reverse cam plate would give you the down for first, but the article then goes on to say the changes were to give the up for first pattern preferred by racers. A very odd and confusing article, but sadly the normal std for these comics. As the restorer has put a SM Mk2 on the back I doubt its ever going above 50mph wink.


laughing So you are saying who ever wrote the article doesn't know f#ck all about an A65...... grin

Last edited by Rich B; 05/06/15 11:57 am.

Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#598210 - 05/06/15 1:45 pm Re: Lightning l"Clubman" for sale [Re: VicCyclone]  
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Tridentman Online content
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Very succinctly put!

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