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Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #588852
03/06/15 11:15 am
03/06/15 11:15 am
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kommando Online content
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Stuart

Quote:
In the ImpBarn post, you mention "the 14 amp capacity"; where did this figure come from?


That is not Les's post as far as I am aware but the one that started the use of these alternators on Sunbeams, it was published in the Sunbeam Clubs Magazine 'On the Beam' 2011.

However a look online for the alternator gives

New aftermarket 12 volt, 14 Amp, Alternator for Kubota Compact Tractors, Excavators, Front Mowers, Zero Turn Mowers, and Lawn & Garden Tractors. Part #15531-64017.

Replaces: 15531-64013, 15531-64016, 15531-64017, 6C040-59250, 6C040-59252.

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Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: NickL] #588855
03/06/15 11:28 am
03/06/15 11:28 am
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Originally Posted By NickL
From the start of using field excited alternators in cars, most used silicon based rectifiers,
there were a few that had external rectifiers and regulators but 99% were silicon devices. The old Lucas 11AC used an external regulator but had integral silicon rectifier.

A search through Bosch, Lucas, Marrelli, NipponDenso, Mitsubishi etc may yield a few that didn't use silicon but I can't remember seeing one.


I think you will find selenium diodes were more common than you think.
Took (quite) a while for silicon to replace selenium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium_rectifier

I have some big square thin metal cases = BSA Bantam ?

As for someones comments about low voltages and reliability, taken a look inside a computer lately. ?
Apart from the 12v power rail for hard drives etc, the goal everyplace else is to reduce voltages.
But that is over quite short distances, and inside chips etc...

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #588857
03/06/15 11:42 am
03/06/15 11:42 am
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Well the current thoughts are to move to 42V in auto-electrics in the future.

http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=720786

http://papers.sae.org/98C006/

Two plausible architectures for implementing dual-voltage 42/14V systems that can meet the needs of future vehicles are described, either of which could gain wide industry acceptance.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Rohan] #588860
03/06/15 11:57 am
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Originally Posted By Rohan

As for someones comments about low voltages and reliability, taken a look inside a computer lately. ?


Will I see an old motorbike in there?


Last edited by triton thrasher; 03/06/15 11:57 am.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: kommando] #588885
03/06/15 2:36 pm
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Hi,

Originally Posted By kommando
New aftermarket 12 volt, 14 Amp, Alternator for Kubota Compact Tractors, Excavators, Front Mowers, Zero Turn Mowers, and Lawn & Garden Tractors. Part #15531-64017.

Thanks for that; a quick look through the product brochures on the Kubota site seems to show peak power around 3,000 rpm; if that's where the 14A is generated, spun at peak rpm on the Sunbeam might produce a couple more Amps?

Regards,

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: triton thrasher] #588927
03/06/15 5:21 pm
03/06/15 5:21 pm
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Originally Posted By Rohan

As for someones comments about low voltages and reliability, taken a look inside a computer lately. ?

Originally Posted By triton thrasher

Will I see an old motorbike in there?


Probably not.
But with the reliability of modern electrics these days,
it wouldn't be impossible to adapt a switchmode power supply to a Sunbeam with this Kubota alternator. ?

6v may be a bit of an odd size though (computers are more 5v), and getting enough amps capability may require a bit of a bulky supply - which would need to be hidden on the bike somewhere if originality was required. (Toolbox ?) And it would likely need some fan cooling too, which is probably unacceptable cosmetically. But the electrics would be bulletproof...

e.g.
http://img.banggood.com/thumb/view/2014/xiemeijuan/02/SKU204188/SKU204188-1.jpg
Except this one is 24v & 6A.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: NickL] #588961
03/06/15 8:43 pm
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Thanks for all the great replies, It's Saturday morning and am still boosting my quota of SHMBO brownie points. laugh

My thoughts on 6 volts was if the alternator made 12 volts, it should make a good 6 volts (7v) at anything off idle speeds but it looks like 12 volts will be fine.

I think the catch with this unit is it is used on engines with limited in operation engine revolutions and based on the very small Vee pulley on the front of it is over driven normally.
I calculated that with the tyres/tires I have, forth gear at 2000 rpm is around 50kph/30mph and 45mph at 3000 rpm.


Is this Kubota unit single or three phase, does it matter ?

https://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/reg.html

I would simply like to use the most efficient option which is hard given there seems to be many
To be continued.......................


More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #588994
03/07/15 1:58 am
03/07/15 1:58 am
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Hi Les,

Originally Posted By Les P
My thoughts on 6 volts was if the alternator made 12 volts, it should make a good 6 volts (7v) at anything off idle speeds but it looks like 12 volts will be fine.

Uh-uh; "6 volts" or "12 volts" are only on the DC side, and depend on the chosen regulator; the DC Volts aren't dependent on the AC Volts from the alternator itself. So, if you use, say, the Kubota regulator; it's 12V, so you'll get 12V "off idle" rising to about 14V around 3,000 rpm, where the Volts will stop even if the engine rpm continue to rise; the Volts will only fall again once engine rpm falls below about 3,000, to 12V at idle.

Moreover, 12V electronics, such as electronic ignition, LED 'bulbs', etc. simply won't work with 6V, and 12V incandescent bulbs will be very dim. Otoh, 6V electronics will be wrecked by 12V, and incandescent bulbs will be blown.

So pick either "6 volts" or "12 volts" DC and make sure all the electrical components (except the alternator itself) are for the chosen nominal Voltage. bigt

Originally Posted By Les P
I think the catch with this unit is it is used on engines with limited in operation engine revolutions and based on the very small Vee pulley on the front of it is over driven normally.

Not really a "catch" as that just means the 14A won't be produced 'til higher crankshaft rpm are reached on the Sunbeam. As Nick's posted, it's a single-phase (two wires) so you should be expecting 8A-plus @ 2,000 rpm, which should be more than enough to power radio, satnav, fairy lights, flashing Santa, etc. ...

Originally Posted By Les P
I would simply like to use the most efficient option which is hard given there seems to be many

Not really. Depends whether you want 12V or 6V, separate rectifier and Zeners or combined regulator/rectifier:-

Separate: the only practical option is 12V and a separate Zener connected to each alternator cable between it and the rectifier.

Combined 12V: Kubota's is one; the often-mentioned Podtronics and Tympanium are two more; if you look through "NickL's" previous posts, he's posted the Oz eBay address of a pattern Honda one; if you have a local bike breaker, one off a Japanese bike (although avoid Suzuki or ones with six wires). The latter two sources are 3-phase but you can connect a single-phase alternator to two of the three reg./rect. AC wires (usually Yellow) and insulate the end of the third one.

Combined 6V: If you really want to stick with original electrics, there are "6 volt" regulators from the likes of Al Osborn, Paul Goff, Dynamo Regulator Conversions and others, just not so cheap or easily-accessible in Oz.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: NickL] #588995
03/07/15 2:08 am
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The simple thing , as it is a stator with wire wound to a 12 volt pattern ,
is to regulate to 12 volts ... rather than trying to clamp it down to 6 volts
and stressing an after market 6 volt regulator .

To complicate things a little , you could run a second regulator ,
at 6 volts , off the 12 v. battery , to run 6 volt components you don't want to change . Something like this but in truth , I think any/most 6volt after market rec/regs will supply 8 to 10 amps in a similar application . ( let the fun begin )

.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: quinten] #588998
03/07/15 2:19 am
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Originally Posted By quinten
as it is a stator with wire wound to a 12 volt pattern

confused

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #589002
03/07/15 3:30 am
03/07/15 3:30 am
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As for the positive 'ground' question. I can't say about corrosion issues. However, electrons flow more easily toward the cooler of two electrodes, which would always be the outer electrode of a spark plug.
Not a lot of difference these days, but with a marginal, 6V system?

BTW: I can remember enough cold mornings when the 6V Volkswagen refused to crank. I'll not go backwards for the sake of "original" equipment.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: NickL] #589006
03/07/15 3:57 am
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Originally Posted By NickL
Quinten

You could use the heat generated to melt the snow in front of you as you ride.......


It's like a muli-tasking resistor , what can I say ?
It saves you from balancing each 6 volt load with its own resistor .
yes ?

.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #589138
03/07/15 7:56 pm
03/07/15 7:56 pm
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20A times 6V = 120W, same as the barely adequate RM21.
That's some "upgrade." laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: NickL] #589682
03/11/15 6:43 am
03/11/15 6:43 am
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Originally Posted By NickL
Les
If you are serious about going 6 volts, i'll put you together a suitable regulator rectifier for that alternator, it will cost about the same as a standard 12 volt one. I'll guarantee it for 20 amps. Just PM me if you really want to go that way. Personally I think it's a waste of time but each to his own eh?

Nick


Hi Nick
Thanks for the offer but I will go to a 12 volt system.
I simply had some idea that a fully charged at all times 6 volt system was better than a possible discharging at low rpm's 12 volt version.
That seems to not be the case so will stick to 12 volts with a suitable 12 volt R/R, I have a spare Pazon unit so that might do the job.

As far as the ImpBarn link what you don't see is what the author says on the Sunbeam site which is members only to view so does not come up in Google searches.
I had seen that Imp Barn version of the Sunbeam Kubota mod but elected to take a different route to both mounting and driving it.
I had also given some consideration to a Joe Hunt magneto and dry sump conversion with a six start Commando pump but that might be for another day.
Best to get it up and running first.

I had read the Kubota unit was 14 amp but also 150 watt which didn't seem to tally, hopefully the wattage is a little higher.
About the only addition for starters will be a set of Lucas L874 indicators and add some relays into the loom.


More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #589683
03/11/15 6:55 am
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I should also add even though it will be obvious, electrics are still a challenge for me beyond the very basics.
The thread has been enlightening.
Perhaps instead of a regulator I need a variable magnetism alternator to control power output and engine load given the 25 HP.




Last edited by Les P; 03/11/15 6:57 am. Reason: Add a picture.

More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: DavidP] #589718
03/11/15 2:00 pm
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Originally Posted By DavidP
20A times 6V = 120W, same as the barely adequate RM21.
That's some "upgrade." laughing


How would you upgrade a Sunbeam's charging system?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #589733
03/11/15 3:03 pm
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Les 14A at 12V is 160W which is plenty, in fact if its regulated to 14V then you get 196W which is going some and why you need a good regulator. 196W is 0.25 HP so you will be restricted to 24.75 HP. You may loose more with the 6 start oil pump ;), the oiling does seem marginal as it is max 30 psi, not sure if adding a full flow filter to the sump makes this worse as gear pumps don't suck well but at least its in the oil reservoir and not being fed through a pipe

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: triton thrasher] #589772
03/11/15 7:37 pm
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Originally Posted By DavidP
20A times 6V = 120W, same as the barely adequate RM21.
That's some "upgrade." laughing


A prewar project here has a 30w generator.
120w would be quite an upgrade.
Just what are folks going to do with all this liberated power ??

Adding blinkers isn't exactly a big power draw either, if the battery has any reserve in it whatsoever ?

Remember too, the final drive was the Archilles heel of Sunbeams, too much horsepower and they still melt.
And Model T's all operated on 0 psi crank pressure - who needs an oil pump anyway.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: kommando] #592255
03/28/15 6:29 am
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Originally Posted By kommando
Les 14A at 12V is 160W which is plenty, in fact if its regulated to 14V then you get 196W which is going some and why you need a good regulator. 196W is 0.25 HP so you will be restricted to 24.75 HP. You may loose more with the 6 start oil pump ;), the oiling does seem marginal as it is max 30 psi, not sure if adding a full flow filter to the sump makes this worse as gear pumps don't suck well but at least its in the oil reservoir and not being fed through a pipe


I got sidetracked with the wheels, new Continental 5.00 x 16 K112's should be here next week.
Now that 12 volts is settled on, what about this Podtronic unit which I like as it has a capacitor, the website says 20 amp and 200 watt.

Podtronic 1P MAX

The loom on the bike is all black wire so maybe that needs looking into also along with some relays, a replacement 12 volt coil is on the way for the Altette horn also.
Is there a gauge of wire more suitable for using in a loom ?


I'm still not sure about the no oil filter, the simple way is to sandwich an open filter in the sump as some have done with no problems apparently.
The other way is to restrict the groove around the rear main bush and take a hose off from the pressure relief port (lower left) run that to a remote oil filter and back to that T to the left of the idler spindle, the oil would come down to feed the rear main, a OPRV is plumbed in somewhere.
With no oil filter I am stuck using non detergent oil, this is the first bike I have had that has a white metal crankshaft bearing, perhaps it has some things in common with similar BSA twins.



More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #592262
03/28/15 8:03 am
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Quote:
Podtronic unit which I like as it has a capacitor


The trouble with having the capacitor included (eg Boyer Powerbox has the same issue) is the capacitor, this has a finite life. It could fail and just stop being a storage can does not cause of problem with the rest of the boxes functionality but it could fail open and cause a short and then the whole box is a dud.

I would go with a normal high capacity rect/reg and add an external cap, plenty of big 50V caps on eBay at just a $ or 2.

NickL recommends this one,

http://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/151285184683?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Next time I need one I will be buying one, even though its 3 phase you just connect 2 of the yellow wires for single phase and have a spare yellow if a diode ever goes wrong.

Whitemetal bearing melt when subjected to seizure conditions, they should never have been used on the A65 and B25, I would be doing everything I could to feed them good clean oil. I have seen the filters in the sump, they are on the feedside like the Charlie's filter using on the OIF 650 Triumphs. Its not the best solution but works as there is a 2 ft head of oil above the filter. The Sunbeam sump filter does not have all these advantages but does seem to work, I would be shielding the top half of the filter so if the oil level goes low it cannot start sucking air through the top of the filter.

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #592264
03/28/15 8:33 am
03/28/15 8:33 am
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Hi Les,

Originally Posted By Les P
Is there a gauge of wire more suitable for using in a loom ?

Fwiw, I use:-

. When it's available in the correct colour(s), 9/0.30 (9 strands, each 0.3 mm. o.d.) for individual component supply and return cables; this is rated for 5.5 Amps so is suitable even for something like a 60W q-h headlamp main filament. When the correct colours aren't available, I use 14/0.30.

. For cables that are common to a number of circuits - e.g. the equivalent of Brown/Blue and Brown/White on a Triumph, BSA or Norton - I use 28/0.3 'thinwall'. This is rated for 25A but mainly I use thinwall because it's only slightly bigger overall than 14/0.30 (which has 'normal'-thickness PVC insulation), 28/0.30 'normal' is relatively quite a bit bigger than thinwall.

. For the main cable that I run from the headlamp area to the underseat area and battery positive, and join all the component return cables to, I use 44/0.30 thinwall. The rating for this is probably overkill, whistle so 28/0.30 would probably be fine here too. smile

. One reason I use those particular cable sizes is they work with the commonly-available crimp-on 3/16"- o.d. bullet terminals.

"Return" above assumes 'positive earth'; if 'negative earth', read 'supply'.

Originally Posted By kommando
NickL recommends this one,

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Regulator-Rec...=item2a367e79bc

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Stuart] #592373
03/28/15 9:16 pm
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Thanks for the great replies, being after lunch Sunday I have a few 'chores to take care of, will re read in depth this evening.
I had seen the link by Nick, that unit seems very modestly priced, $16 verses $70 to do the same thing it seems.


More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #592418
03/29/15 6:11 am
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I ordered two of the R/R,s in the link.



More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Les P] #592527
03/29/15 7:17 pm
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What year is your 'beam, it wouldn't have been late enough for +ve earth, would it ?

Neat coloured wiring diagram, best I have seen for a long time.
If only owners manuals used such a layout, combined with a theoretical schematic....

Re: 12 volt alternator to 6 volt output. [Re: Rohan] #592583
03/30/15 6:15 am
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This one is S7 2653.
Quote:

Production started with frame number S7-2501 on 27/05/1949


All S series are positive earth but I will change it to negative.

I picked up a Lucas 525 (iirc) tail light from New Zealand but originally it would have had something like a Lucas 211.
Something needs to be done about the earthing system also as far as the components, apparently it is a mystery how the circuit works on a rubber mounted engine for one not to mention from the handle bars to the main frame.



More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
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