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#589366 - 03/09/15 7:50 am New tire mounted is really out of balance.  
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jhays79 Offline
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jhays79  Offline
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NJ
I mounted a new Dunlop 18" tt100 rear tire to the wheel on my t140. I put the yellow circle by the valve stem, it's got two rim locks. I have a static balancer I out it on, and it's a hair over 3oz off to get it to balance. Seems like a lot to me. The light spot on the tire is really close to the valve stem. Any advice? Should I get those wheel weights that fit over the spokes, or use the Dyna beads I already have. I used the stock on wheel weights at first, but I don't trust them that much to stay on.

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#589409 - 03/09/15 1:13 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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bsatrinor Offline
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staten island NYC
get rid of the wheel locks,,they are throwning your wheel out of balance,,,,,you would be crazy to add 3 oz----

#589413 - 03/09/15 1:40 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Gary E Offline
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Gary E  Offline
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Medford, Oregon
Stick with the rim locks. Too much of a pain in the rear at this point to take them out. Break the bead and rotate the tire in the rim, re-inflate, re-balance to see if it gets any better. May have to do that more than once. It'll be a bit of a pain to rotate the tire with the rim locks. To rotate, grab the spokes with the tire between your legs, so you are rotating the rim rather than the tire. Before re-inflation, check that the valve stem is straight.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
#589422 - 03/09/15 2:16 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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koob Offline
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koob  Offline
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SK , Canada
Shop manual says to position the tire dot between the rimlocks...but I find it can still take alot of weight to balance w/ rimlocks.

#589423 - 03/09/15 2:21 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
Joined: Nov 2010
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kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content
#irideslow

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Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
I can relate.



Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
#589428 - 03/09/15 2:32 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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JD Offline
Moto-Amish
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Maryland
Ha! Nice pic Kurt!


Josh
#589446 - 03/09/15 4:12 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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robcurrie Online content
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Irene, South Africa
That bike is standing on its own without the stand!!!

Rob C

#589448 - 03/09/15 4:35 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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jhays79 Offline
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jhays79  Offline
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NJ
I tried spinning the tire on the wheel so the dot was in a different position. Didn't improve much. Broke the tire and wheel down again, took the rim locks off, remounted everything, and it was almost balanced as is. I threw the dyna beads in the inner tube for the hell of it since I already bought them.

#589452 - 03/09/15 4:48 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
Joined: Jun 2002
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By jhays79
I tried spinning the tire on the wheel so the dot was in a different position. Didn't improve much.
took the rim locks off, remounted everything, and it was almost balanced

Presumably the rim locks were opposite one another on the rim? Did you check if the weight of the rim locks was equal, or at least close?

Regards,

#589457 - 03/09/15 5:13 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: JD]  
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kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content
#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
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Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By JD
Ha! Nice pic Kurt!

Thank you. I painted the weights black so you'd have a hard time noticing them.

Originally Posted By robcurrie
That bike is standing on its own without the stand!!!
Rob C


...another benefit of wheel weights.

My attitude, obviously, is, live with it. For this bike anyway. Next time, I think I will first try balancing the wheel without tire and tube, weigh the rim locks, mount the tire then try sliding it around ... in other words, one step at a time.

Originally Posted By Stuart
Presumably the rim locks were opposite one another on the rim?

That may be part of the problem, for me, anyway. On the bike pictured (Bitsa 650), the rimlocks and the tube valve are spaced equi-distant around the rim. While on my stock-ish '69 TR6R, with original rear rim, the rimlocks are opposite one another, with the valve situated just four spokes away from one of them.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 03/09/15 5:27 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
#589464 - 03/09/15 5:34 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Wilfred Offline
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Wilfred  Offline
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Before I had a couple of rims replaced I replaced wheel bearings and painted the hubs etc and then gave them a spin......surprised at how far out of balance the bare hubs with brake drums are. W


"It's about the ride..."
#589472 - 03/09/15 6:15 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: Wilfred]  
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jhays79 Offline
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NJ
The rim locks weren't opposite of each on my rim. They were at roughly the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock position, with the valve stem at 12 o'clock. When the rim locks installed the wheel would always settle on the balancer at the 6 o'clock position, between the rim locks, which would make sense to me if the rim locks were the culprit. Before I remounted the tire I stuck the bare wheel on the balancer and it was almost dead on balanced.

#589533 - 03/10/15 4:38 am Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By jhays79
The rim locks weren't opposite of each on my rim. They were at roughly the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock position, with the valve stem at 12 o'clock. When the rim locks installed the wheel would always settle on the balancer at the 6 o'clock position, between the rim locks, which would make sense to me if the rim locks were the culprit. Before I remounted the tire I stuck the bare wheel on the balancer and it was almost dead on balanced.

Errr ... no.

If "the wheel would always settle on the balancer at the 6 o'clock position, between the rim locks", the rim locks themselves must've been equally balanced, therefore logically cannot have been "the culprit". However, if "They were at roughly the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock position, with the valve stem at 12 o'clock", by definition, they are both in one half of the rim (the lower half in your description), therefore will require to be balanced in the other half of the rim, which the valve and tyre couldn't do on their own.

For two rim locks to balance each other, not only must they be of at least very similar weight, but they must be opposite each other on the rim. The only time "4 o'clock and 8 o'clock" works is when you have three rim locks, of similar weight, with the third in the "12 o'clock" position (and the valve in another position).

Hth.

Regards,

#589539 - 03/10/15 5:54 am Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: Stuart]  
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jhays79 Offline
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jhays79  Offline
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NJ
I understand what you're saying, makes sense. The rim locks were throwing my balance off enough to where i needed almost 3 oz of weight on the opposite side of the wheel from them to correct it. The bare rim was almost perfectly balanced by itself on the balancer, so i know that wasn't an issue.

Last edited by jhays79; 03/10/15 5:57 am.
#589549 - 03/10/15 8:04 am Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content
#irideslow

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Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
This thread from last June absolutely convinced me to keep the rim locks:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=552691&page=1


Last edited by kurt fischer; 03/10/15 8:05 am.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
#589593 - 03/10/15 3:20 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Modern motorcycle tires run at far higher pressures than tyres of old, I think rim locks are only needed for low pressure off road use. On the highway I dinnae fit them.

Ive had a few punctures over the years , they have never been , bang and your off style, however I really dont like front punctures, and rim locks are seldom fitted on road bike fronts.

Rim locks also add mass at a large diameter , not good.

maybe if you are using old style K70s they are a good idea.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#589610 - 03/10/15 4:13 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



Joined: May 2013
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Only ever used rim locks on off road bikes, never on a road bike, and for those Interested my back tyre runs 35psi, that's same whether it be an Avon road rider or a K70, as tyre compounds are much softer than they were in the 60's. Also ( and if your using Dunlop, their car tyres are a soft compound and side wall compared to many tyres, they won't start using a really hard compound for the enthusiasts who insist on running 21psi in the tyres.

However, as the rim locks are much heavier than the valve stem, why don't you put the yellow dot to the 6 o'clock position, between the rim locks and balance again.

To add more, depending on how bad the balance is out ( I'm sorry I don't know what ounces is compared to grammes) but 5 grammes of weight wouldn't make a noticable difference in a back wheel


beerchug
#589615 - 03/10/15 4:51 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Tridentman Online content
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Tridentman  Online Content

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New Jersey USA
Approximately 28 grammes = 1 oz.
HTH

#589617 - 03/10/15 4:55 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted By gavin eisler
Modern motorcycle tires run at far higher pressures than tyres of old,

Based on what? Compared to fifity, sixty years ago, I agree but certainly Dunlop UK have never recommended increased pressures for T140/TR7 on K70's or T150 and T160 on K81 from what they recommended in the mid-1970's. Avon recommend the same 29 front, 32 or 33 rear for all those models on Roadriders, which is some 5-6 psi higher for twins, 3-4 psi for T150 and 1-2 psi for T160.

Originally Posted By gavin eisler
Rim locks also add mass at a large diameter , not good.

For a while, I ran one T160 with the original 19" wheel and rim locks, the other T160 with an 18" alloy wheel without rim locks. No difference I could ever discern.

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
my back tyre runs 35psi, that's same whether it be an Avon road rider or a K70, as tyre compounds are much softer than they were in the 60's.

Pressures have little (nothing?) to with compounds, they have (almost?) all to do with carcass softness (or not); that's why, when the air pressure leaks out of a tyre, it goes flat. wink

Originally Posted By Allan Gill
I don't know what ounces is compared to grammes

As in many things, Google is your friend - 1 ounce is 28(.3495) grammes.

Hth.

Regards,

Last edited by Stuart; 03/10/15 4:56 pm. Reason: Tridentman beat me to it. :)
#589628 - 03/10/15 6:23 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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jhays79 Offline
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jhays79  Offline
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NJ
Let's cut the b.s. am I gonna die without the rim locks or what!?

#589638 - 03/10/15 7:18 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content
#irideslow

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,800
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By jhays79
Let's cut the b.s. am I gonna die without the rim locks or what!?


Yes. Well, with or without rim locks, yes, we're all gonna die.

To me, my bike just wouldn't look right without rim locks, like something's missing here. If they add some safety, then all the better.


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
#589645 - 03/10/15 7:56 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Tridentman Online content
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Tridentman  Online Content

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New Jersey USA
Jhays, my fellow New Joooooiseyian, if you want everlasting life give all your Brit bikes to me and join a church.
As for rim locks--I have not fitted any for the 50+ years that I have been riding Brit bikes.
I have had quite a few punctures in that time--mainly when I was younger, couldn't afford new tubes and the tubes were more patches than tubes. All my punctures were quite slow--giving me time to stop safely--perhaps I was lucky.
But I have never understood the logic of fitting rim locks to the rear wheel but not the front.
Despite what has been said earlier in this thread what governs whether the tire moves around the rim or not is the peak torque transmitted by the wheel to the road, This is highest when braking hard--you always stop quicker than you accelerate and we all know that in hard braking the front wheel does most of the work.
If you are riding off road with much reduced tire pressures that is a completely different scenario but for on road riding I would not think of putting on a rim lock.
Other views are of course available.

#589660 - 03/10/15 9:50 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: Tridentman]  
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DavidP Offline
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Gnashville
Originally Posted By Tridentman
you always stop quicker than you accelerate

Except when using a comical rear brake. laughing


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#589686 - 03/11/15 7:48 am Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: Stuart]  
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gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Originally Posted By Stuart
Hi,

[quote=gavin eisler]Modern motorcycle tires run at far higher pressures than tyres of old,

Based on what? Compared to fifity, sixty years ago, I agree but certainly Dunlop UK have never recommended increased pressures for T140/TR7 on K70's or T150 and T160 on K81 from what they recommended in the mid-1970's. Avon recommend the same 29 front, 32 or 33 rear for all those models on Roadriders, which is some 5-6 psi higher for twins, 3-4 psi for T150 and 1-2 psi for T160.

My book pressures for my 71 lightning are 21 psi front and 22 psi rear, I now run modern rubber at around 32 psi.

Originally Posted By gavin eisler
Rim locks also add mass at a large diameter , not good.

For a while, I ran one T160 with the original 19" wheel and rim locks, the other T160 with an 18" alloy wheel without rim locks. No difference I could ever discern.

Added mass to the wheels affects handling , suspension, acceleration and braking, just because you didnt notice it doesnt mean its not so.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#589743 - 03/11/15 4:08 pm Re: New tire mounted is really out of balance. [Re: jhays79]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Stuart: you are right about wall thickness instead of compound, although compounds will have changed. Every manufacturer uses different wall thickness compared to another ( when your fitting up to 20 of these things in a day you can instantly tell which make of tyre is going to be a bas***d to fit just by looking at the make, profile rarely becomes an issue. )

However, companies like Dunlop have changed production factories at least twice since our old nails were knocked out of the factory, I've seen tyres produced in France and the Far East, so things must have changed in production too.

Needless to say, I have seen guys running around on new dunlops at 22psi and had the tyre turn on the rim, I have yet seen anyone running an identical tyre at a more modest pressure have an issue, running at a sensible psi will also improve the handling.

Knowing how many grammes and ounce is now ( thanks guys) you looking at about 90g, yes that is one hell of a lot of weight, I would remove the rim locks first TBH.

as for the question, are you going to die without rim locks... No, unless your insistent at running what I would call under inflated, then the tyre may turn on the rim, dragging the tube and necking the valve off.


beerchug
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