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Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58951
01/14/08 9:09 pm
01/14/08 9:09 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5
Stockholm, Sweden
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Bsa54 Offline OP
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Hi!
I bought this front wheel on a swap-meet a couple years ago. I was under the impression that it was Triumph/Bsa, but soon discovered things where not right. Note the position of the wire adjuster and lack of brake plate to fork leg mount. I bought a repro triumph mesh for the intake that was about half an inch to short.

When I went to my local parts shop to buy bearings (I brought along the old ones) the manager told me they were from a Norton.

But I have not been able to find a single Norton with this kind of hub. The hub itself does not look like its been modified. But since it's on a Borrani rim, I suppose the bearings might have been changed to fit a norton cafe racer at some point, or what do I know..

Anyone recognize this hub? Since I'm about to sell it now, it would be nice to know what I'm selling, and for the buyer to know what he's buying.. Your help is much appreciated! smile







Sorry for the crappy pictures, taken with my cellphone. The black spots on the brake plate are remains of old paint.

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Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58952
01/14/08 10:12 pm
01/14/08 10:12 pm
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 62
santa cruz ca
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norcallightning Offline
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t100 triumph/bsa brake plate,there are 2 sizes of that 2ls you probbably bought gauze for the larger more common version

the hub itself is norton


64/58 NORBSA
RE 500 bullet
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58953
01/15/08 12:26 am
01/15/08 12:26 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,088
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Offline
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It looks like the 68 Triumph linkage, but if the screen was too short, maybe you need the one for the bigger brake, 650 (not 350/500).

Or vice-versa.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58954
01/15/08 3:26 am
01/15/08 3:26 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

If I'm right, you have a genuine, if mutilated, frown piece of rocking-horse poo.

Firstly, it is what it looks like - a BSA/Triumph brake plate; however, I believe it's off a very rare model - a T65. At the risk of telling you something you know already, the T65 was a late oif T120 with BSA tank badges.

The reason I believe it's off a T65 is that hole in the 11 o'clock position - the T65 had oif/conical hub forks but, for whatever reason, didn't have conical hub brakes; that hole takes a bolt or stud that locked the brake plate to the oif/conical fork leg. All the more-common BSA/Triumph brake plates that look like this have a cast lug here that slides between two others on the pre-conical forks' steel slider.

Another give-away is the remains of the black paint - afaik, only two models had black-painted brake plates, the T65 and late T100R's; however, the T100 had the pre-conical forks, with steel sliders.

Next, I'll hazard a guess ('cos I can't be sure from the photos.) that the 'wire adjuster' is actually welded on under the left-hand lever? The reasons I'm guessing this is the 'blemish' I can see to the left of the top hole - that's where the 'wire adjuster' should be, but someone's moved it to match the '68-only front lever, :rolleyes: rather than just fitting a '69-on front lever that the T65 had originally. frown

Finally, just to clarify, the other posts about different front air scoop meshes for the two 'normal' different (7" and 8") brakes aren't correct; the mesh was the same on both sizes of the brake (part number W1991 aka 37-1991). Unfortunately, your brake started out as a completely different casting, and someone forgot to make sure the air scoop was the same size. frown

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58955
01/15/08 9:21 am
01/15/08 9:21 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5
Stockholm, Sweden
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Bsa54 Offline OP
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Stockholm, Sweden
I don't believe the black paint is original, it does not have that feel at all. Thin and comes off way to easy. The wire adjuster mount, still coverd with black paint and placed underneath the left lever, is in the casting for sure. Not welded on. And there are no signs of cut-off where the adjuster supposed to be.

Stuart, the 11 o'clock hole really looks like the T65. Great find! I was not aware of that model. But the lever and wire adjuster still does not look like the T65 bikes I've googled.

It seem like we're dealing with some kind of bastard here smile Is the Norton hub confirmed? Someone told me in the past that it might be a Dunstall (or other) aftermarket plate. Could that be the case?

Thank you guys! smile

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58956
01/15/08 9:04 pm
01/15/08 9:04 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 226
sugarloaf ny
injunmort Offline
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sugarloaf ny
it looks like it is from a late 60's to early 70s bsa starfire 250. similiar to bsa/tri 2ls front from same vintage only smaller.


1948 indian chief
1937, 1939, 1962 norton es2
1950 triumph trw
1970 triumph bonneville
1975 norton commando
1972 bmw r75/5
various projects
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58957
01/16/08 4:15 am
01/16/08 4:15 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Scotland
Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by Bsa54:
I don't believe the black paint is original, it does not have that feel at all. Thin and comes off way to easy.
Have you seen the black paint on T100 front brake plates from the same period? wink Bear in mind that, late '72 to early '73, when the T65's were constructed, was a particularly bad time for BSA and Triumph, with the financial collapse of the BSA Group imminent and upper management working hard to secure a British goverment-backed rescue package.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bsa54:
there are no signs of cut-off where the adjuster supposed to be.
What's that mark immediately to the left of the 11 o'clock hole, that's visible in both your photos. of the brake plate?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bsa54:
the lever <snip> still does not look like the T65 bikes I've googled.
The T65 front brake was fitted with the '69-on front lever; that's cranked so that the cable is pretty much parallel with the fork leg. Hence the 'wire adjuster' is then in pretty much the position of that mark to the left of the 11 o'clock hole. Otoh, the front lever on your brake is '68-only; with the 'wire adjuster' in the position you describe, the brake cable made an unsightly loop between the adjuster and the lower yoke bracket.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bsa54:
it might be a Dunstall (or other) aftermarket plate.
Can't rule it out 'til it's identified positively, but you have to ask why it looks so very much like a '68-'70 BSA/Triumph one? confused

Quote:
Originally posted by injunmort:
late 60's to early 70s bsa starfire 250.
Tbmk, '69-on, every model BSA and Triumph made standardised on one of the two (7" and 8") tls brake plates and (basically?) the same forks, certainly with the same brake plate locator on the fork sliders. '68 was the transition year, with some models using up stocks of older sls brakes while others had the new standard tls, but with the cable mounting and lever arrangement that gave the aforementioned big loop of cable.

'71-on, almost every model switched to conical hub forks and a version of that brake. Afaik, the only exceptions were the T100, that retained both the otherwise pre-'71 forks and brake, and the T65, that used '71-on forks with a front brake similar to the pre-'71 one but modified to fit the '71-on forks.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58958
01/16/08 5:55 am
01/16/08 5:55 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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just to clarify the mesh on the air scoop on those Triumph (aka BSA) brakes, they are of different sizes. I have two or three of each. The problem is that the T100 parts catalogue uses the same part number for each item....but that's not the only part number mix up in the catalogues. The mesh for the 7" TLS is approximately 7 1/4 inches long and the one for the 8" TLS is approx 8 3/4 inches long...and such are the joys of our illness...cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58959
01/16/08 6:04 am
01/16/08 6:04 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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and the 500 had both sizes of front TLS, from 69 on. ...7 inch on the T100S and the T100C along with the 250 singles etc and 8 inch on the T100T and R along with the 650's and Tridents...while in 68 the 650s had the 8 inch TLS with the cable coming in from the rear rather than down the fork leg...both are very good brakes.


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58960
01/16/08 4:16 pm
01/16/08 4:16 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Wilf,

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
the mesh on the air scoop on those Triumph (aka BSA) brakes, they are of different sizes.
The problem is that the T100 parts catalogue uses the same part number for each
:rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart:
the other posts about different front air scoop meshes <snip> aren't correct; the mesh was the same on both sizes of the brake
shocked Mmmm, this humble pie is nice with cream ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bsa54:
I bought a repro triumph mesh for the intake that was about half an inch to short.
So which is this one?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
7 inch on the T100S and the T100C
8 inch on the T100T and R
Oh no, it's wa-a-ay better than that ... wink

The only T100T's and R's to have the 8" tls were the first '69-season batch (built calendar August/September 1968 and coded in the old H99999 series). The second '69-season batch (built from calendar December 1968 and coded in the new-for-'69 format), and all subsequent seasons' T100's, all had the 7" tls. The change is detailed in the '70 parts book but was actually a 'mid-('69-)season update'.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58961
01/17/08 9:03 am
01/17/08 9:03 am
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Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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....not sure what that last paragraph was about....69 to 73 catalogues show W1722 hub/drum and W1996 brake shoe for T and R; and W3225 hub/drum with W3466 brake shoe for C and S in the years they were made...it's summarized on page 140 of Nelson's Tiger 100/Daytona book and stays the same except for the black matt paint variant in 1973. must be time for sleep...night all


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58962
01/17/08 11:18 am
01/17/08 11:18 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Wilf,

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
69 to 73 catalogues show
Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
T100 parts catalogue
that's not the only part number mix up in the catalogues.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
it's summarized on page 140 of Nelson's Tiger 100/Daytona book
In the specifications/parts numbers cross-reference that accompanies that book, 'Front Brake Dia (Ins) is shown as '7' for the T100R '71-on.

"Triumph In America", page 236 (which is in the 'Changes to Ranges' appendix) - '1969 C-Range:' [frame/engine number beginning] 'XC07583' [change] '7" Twin leading shoe front brake'.

Also BritBike Forum Triumph Board passim.

Nevertheless, I'd be willing to bet that someone somewhere will post "I had a nn (choose year) T100R and it had an xyz brake". The '68 to '70 7" and 8" tls were deliberately interchangeable so, when the most important thing was a particular shipment left at a particular time to make a booked space on a ship sailing at a particular time, whatever needed to be done was done.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58963
01/17/08 3:11 pm
01/17/08 3:11 pm
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Posts: 5
Stockholm, Sweden
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Bsa54 Offline OP
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Hi Stuart and others! Once again, thank you for helping me out. bigt

The "mark" next to the 11 o'clock hole is not really a mark. It's only a visual effect coused by bad camera and stripped paint. The whole plate has untouched casting texture. (except for the polished outer ring) No signs of modification.

(But there is a really strange hole just above the right lever. Does not go all the way throu, about 5-10mm deep.)

I'm pretty sure I bought the 8" mesh. Couse I later tried to return it for a larger mesh, but the shop manager told med there were no such..

Another thing. Does all triumphs of this era have the same axle-diameter? Couse the Tri axles I own are actually thicker than the plate center hole and can not be fitted. (no inserts in plate center) And there is also a notch round the center, which would make it impossible to fit the brake plate retaining nut that's on my Tri axles.

The brake plate center hole fits perfect with the Norton bearings and axle.. confused

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58964
01/17/08 5:06 pm
01/17/08 5:06 pm
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Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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hi Stuart. this is really fun...the Nelson spec book does say 7 inch for the late Daytona while it also lists the part number for the front wheel that they have the 7 under with the same part number as the 69 wheel that has the 8 under it....W 3458..all the late Daytonas that I've ever seen had 8 inch TLS brakes in the 19 inch rim in this part of the world but who knows what ended up everywhere else and after all, who really cares?....maybe Triumph in America was thinking of the T100C, which was 7 inch TLS in the 19 inch rim and wheel part number W 3430.... which I've also seen in the flesh on the original, but like I said before.....Cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58965
01/18/08 2:08 pm
01/18/08 2:08 pm
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Posts: 5
Stockholm, Sweden
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Bsa54 Offline OP
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found this old thread:
http://www.britbike.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/58/t/000534/p/1.html

Explains why someone would want such a plate on their Norton hub at least. But I'm still convinced mine has not been modified/converted. Strange..

But I suppose this wheel could make a Norton/Triton-owner happy then.

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58966
01/19/08 1:04 am
01/19/08 1:04 am
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Posts: 10,239
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

With sincere apologies to 'Bsa54' for hijacking his thread ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
all the late Daytonas that I've ever seen had 8 inch TLS brakes
And you took a ruler to 'em all? wink 'Cos, unless you did, or you had 7" and 8" side-by-side, it's almost impossible to tell 'em apart.

Also, was each one you saw still owned by it's first owner and he/she assured you that the brake was original? Until the internet linked people with bits of a given picture, everyone extrapolated from the bit(s) they had. Most T100R/T restorers in the 1980's and 1990's would've thought what you've said (often based on just a parts book and, say, an advert.) and set out to find an 8"; it's not until you can see (most of?) the big picture, you realise many of the earlier extrapolations might well have been incorrect.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
maybe Triumph in America was thinking of the T100C,
Nope - the entry continues "(T100C,T100R)".

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
which was 7 inch TLS in the 19 inch rim and wheel part number W 3430....
There you go again ... extrapolatin' ... wink

If you look in Harry Woolridge's "The Triumph Trophy Bible", under "1969 Model T100C Trophy 500", " Brakes From XC07583, the front brake was uprated, with a 7in fully floating twin leading shoe pattern".

So that's two books, written by different authors at different times on different continents using different sources (afaict, I couldn't find in either an acknowledgement of the other) both mentioning the same number.

Another thing you get from Woolridge is that, although (Nelson says) the second batch of '69-season T100's began with XC06279 on 10th December 1968, XC07583 was the first T100C and it was produced on 30th December 1968. This, being a Tuesday, is likely to have been the first or second day of production after the factory Christmas shutdown (1st January then not being an English public holiday), so a likely time for certainly minor changes to be introduced.

I'm beginning to believe that, despite what it shows in the '69 T100 parts book (which would've gone to press weeks or months before September 1968), none of the T100C's in the first '69 batch (H66124 to H66976) had the 7" tls but used up stocks of the previous season's sls. Then, when the 7" tls had to be fitted, someone realised it was near-identical to the 8" tls on the production line already so, sooner or later, a T100C would be fitted with an 8" by mistake.

Otoh, if not before, fitting the 7" tls to the T100R from '71 makes even better sense. From then, with only the T100R and C left, and them being the only models not having conical hub brakes, why would a factory as big as Meriden faff around with two different brakes, and therefore two different wheels, when one made much better mass-production sense?

Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
after all, who really cares?....
Quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred:
this is really fun...
You do, same as me. wink

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Help me identify this front wheel hub.. #58967
01/19/08 5:03 am
01/19/08 5:03 am
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,341
Nanaimo, B.C. Canada
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Wilfred Online content
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7 inch, 8 inch my 67 Daytona in a 1970 T100S cycle has the 7 inch TLS in an 18 inch rim and the backing plate anchor position in relation to the lump on the fork leg is lower and only engages the bottom half of that lump whereas the 8 inch plate engages all of it....so even though it looks bigger, the anchor coupling is another clue...and what Harry Woolridge said about the 69 T100C...isn't that what I said already? I think it must be time to get back in the shop. cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."

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