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#583556 - 01/31/15 10:21 pm mail-order LSR  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
well, i live about 170 miles from wilmington, ohio, where the ECTA has its ohio mile event. i've never raced before (on a track, anyway), but i caught the bug. i've been accumulating pieces to build a 650cc triumph for the production modified pushrod class. much of it has come through the mail, which has been an interesting and educational experience in building a motorcycle. here's where i am so far . . .

got a frame i located here in ohio on craigslist. it's a 1965 bonneville, but seems to be a carryover from 1964, judging by the bracketry. it's all that was left of a basket case bike a man had since he was 15 years old. he took it apart and stored it in his garage, when he went to look at years later it had all been stolen except for the frame and a wheel. it came with a title, of all things, so it will even be street-legal (sort of) once it's up and running:



found a motor on eBay. 1970 bonneville, the late 650 cylinder head, though not so late as to have the bolt-on carb manifolds. turns freely, but the pistons are 0.030 over and i'll have to use some closer to stock to stay legal in the 650 class. it's in reasonably good shape on the outside, though i haven't torn into it yet:



front forks were more eBay finds. these are from a 70's TR7. i wanted the disc brake front end because it gave me fairly recent fork design and i could lose the disc to get a no-brake lightweight front end without a lot of work. adapting it to the 1965 dry frame took some information, which i got from people here on britbike-- thank you, folks. what i'll have is a disc brake T150 stem and lower tree, and with some conversion bearings and spacers the new forks should bolt right onto the old frame:



the motor is a 1970, so it has the earlier of the two versions of the two-piece rocker box head bolts. but the bolts were lost in the sands of time and cost some $20 each anyway. there were other issues with the original rocker boxes, including buggered-up side holes where you used a feeler gauge that year, that needed expensive plugs anyway. rather than try to fix what the motor came with, i found a pair of very nice earlier rocker boxes at not a lot of money, and bought them:



the motor was also a four-speed. nothing wrong with that, but the five-speed box has the ratios closer together and more evenly spaced. the four-speed drops into a hole when you shift into third gear, and to keep from bogging you either have to rev the engine to the sky before the shift or build in a wider and lower power band just for that gear. i'm thinking that a five speed will let me keep the power band higher and narrower without the bogging penalty, which for a top-end machine is part of the plan. a britbike member blew up his bonneville here a while back, and i bought the entire five speed innards from his bike:



at the same time i found a box of five speed parts for sale on eBay that gave me spares for what i'd just got, and a possibility of another five speed conversion on another machine in the future:





found a perfect un-dented, un-cracked, and un-corroded oil tank:



along with a set of stock 1964 battery/oil tank mounts to use to hold it up:



and there are various other necessary pieces, some of which i've had for years:







(probably will update the shocks, though)

at this point i have enough together in one spot to put up a rolling chassis, so i can actually start tweaking this machine into what i'd like it to be by this summer. i'm planning on being at wilmington in june, as i don't think i'll have enough time to do the motor tuning by the may event, but i have a lot of motor work to get done by then.

much of this would not have been possible without this forum-- there are many people here who are willing to share a vast amount of knowledge on crossing parts, building a machine, choosing between components for specific purposes and tuning various combinations to make horsepower. much more than i can fit into my head. but the goal is to build a lightweight, high-horsepower, high-revving machine that will do more than 120 miles per hour--hopefully significantly more-- without losing the crank or shooting the pushrods through the tank.

we'll see how that works out.

in the meantime my poor old 72 T120 which went down for a simple manifold repair has been relegated to basket case status until i have more time to devote to it. i've had this one for some 38 years, though, so it's not going anywhere else:




Last edited by kevin; 01/31/15 10:28 pm.

Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#583605 - 02/01/15 7:52 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,103
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Running from demons in WNY
Kevin, good deal! Just sit back and let the Brown truck do your fetching.. Your shop certainly looks big enough grin
A lot of my LSR Triumph was built off eBay and the classified ads on Brit Bikeand the Jalopy Journal.Then I asked a lot of questions here, guessed the rest and built the bike.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#583606 - 02/01/15 8:19 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Blown Income Offline
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Edgewater, Md
Kevin, Looks as if your off to a good start. Take your time in the mock-up phase and make sure everything feels good to you in the full tuck position. ITs not fun trying to modify things at the track especially at a 2 day event.

I plan on being at the May event if can get get off my A** and do some dyno tuning. June would be great too as there would be probably be less people there for more runs.

We need some more BSA LSR bikes, Myself and Tom are getting to be out numbered!


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
#583608 - 02/01/15 8:33 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Blown Income]  
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Chris, Hey,now it's even, two BSA'a and two Triumphs grin
I probably won't be at Ohio this year...We're going to Loring Maine in July to run on the longer track.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#583609 - 02/01/15 8:41 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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Blown Income Offline
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Edgewater, Md
HB, don't forget about David and his 8 valve and theres the Trident.

Good luck at Loring, I would love to make up for the fall event but not sure if that will be doable this year. Still trying to decide if I should bring both the A10 and the new A65 or just the A65 and spend some quality time with the new machine.


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
#583627 - 02/01/15 12:30 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Blown Income]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
My shop is pretty big, as i built it when i was a beekeeper and needed lots of storage. No bees now but still have the building. Needs heat though. Ran out of money before i got to that.

How long is the course at loring? Im planning at wilmington on gearing the machine so i run out of horsepower right at the end of the one mile run up. If i still have any oomph left after that it will be wasted.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#583628 - 02/01/15 12:57 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,752
shel Online content
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shel  Online Content
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ohio
Well that explains all those honey boxes


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#583630 - 02/01/15 12:58 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2012
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Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Loring has two tracks, one mile and one and a half mile. Hoping with the longer track my bike can get near 130 MPH with different gearing
At Wilmington my bike runs 4.66 overall gearing. With a 27 inch rear tire the bike runs 125 MPH right on it's power peak of 7300 rpm. My rider says the bike is just barely accelerating at the one mile mark. Half mile speed is around 117 mph. There's often a headwind at Wilmington so the speeds can be held down a bit.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#583645 - 02/01/15 3:19 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: shel]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted By: shel
Well that explains all those honey boxes


Empty bee hives are great for storing basket cases too. Just not 900 of them.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#583662 - 02/01/15 5:33 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 367
konon Online content
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Iowa
Keep us up dated on your build Kevin. Always fun to see.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1971 Rickman 125
#585486 - 02/14/15 9:28 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
lots of telephone work up until now.

bought a cam from megacycle:

Quote:
510-x2 .375" 296.5° 103°/105° "R" New race profile. Best all around road-race.

Best peak horsepower. May need to trim flywheel clearance. Use racing pistons and springs.
TDC LIFT in = .174" @ 1.1 rocker ratio/with lash
Base circle diameter = .812" ex = .153"


camshafts are fairly arcane to me, so i called megacycle to see what they recommended. this 510-x2 isn't a hot-looking camshaft, on paper. the duration is moderate, at 296 (stock bonneville is 272), and the lift is also moderate, at 0.375 (stock is 0.322). they have another (the 510-95) that seemed much more radical to me, with a duration of 340 and a 0.400 lift.

jim duer came to the telephone and explained that the -x2 was a new design he was selling, which made the -95 obsolete. in spite of the numbers, he said the -95 made a lazier motor than the -x2, even though the -x2 had a wider powerband. he said if the porting is right, then the shorter duration cam would have no trouble filling the cylinders.

he also recommended 11:1 or 11.5:1 pistons to run with this cam. not a lot of those around except new old stock TT pistons, with obsolete design features.

they emphasized that this cam had to be run with their spring kit--titanium collars, and would require cutting a stock crank and guide blocks, all of which is par for the course, really. i asked about the kibblewhite beehive springs, and barbara (the other half of megacycle) explained that these springs had a very long history of development with the motor, both within megacycle and as proprietary springs in other companies such as S&W and Jomo.

they make the cam, so i listen to what they say and bought their springs. will be sending in the old tappets to be reground tomorrow.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#585492 - 02/14/15 9:55 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
Scotland
Quote:
found a perfect un-dented, un-cracked, and un-corroded oil tank:along with a set of stock 1964 battery/oil tank mounts to use to hold it up:


Just a heads up for you, the top mounting for a 63-65 tank are 2 vertical tabs across the bike, the later 66 onwards tank you have has 2 rings in line with the wheels on the bike, it can be adapted by adding 2 tabs at right angles. Then you get the 6 pint capacity instead of the 5 pint for the 63-65.

#585497 - 02/14/15 10:35 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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ohio, usa
you are quite correct, as i discovered when i tried to fit it. i didn't know that at the time.

but i found a 63-65 in reasonable shape, so maybe i have solved that problem. it is a bit smaller, though, and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.



the newer one was a real beaut, tho


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#585697 - 02/15/15 11:32 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 208
DKA Offline
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DKA  Offline
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North Carolina
Kevin, Looks like you're on the right path. Just pay attention to the details. If you get all the details right (and there are a lot of them) then the bike should be good.

I'm going to do my best to be at the May event. Are going to attend? Let's try to find each other if you are.
David

#585698 - 02/15/15 11:33 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2005
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DKA Offline
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DKA  Offline
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North Carolina
Oh and you too Chris!:)

#585744 - 02/15/15 3:32 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,887
Scotland
Quote:
and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.


As did mine, they all have a repair here and that's why they went to the rings, your bottom mount is for 63 only and breaks off due to vibration so try to insulate it with a rubber washer or mount.

#585759 - 02/15/15 4:50 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kommando]  
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Scottie J Offline
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Denver, CO USA
Kevin, you will want to check out http://www.mapcycle.com/map/

They specialize in British performance parts. They sell steel H-beam rods and forged pistons which you are going to need for racing LSR. I'm actually going to be buying some BSA rods and pistons for my Enfield from them when I finally build the performance motor for that. Also, if you haven't already, check out the LSR forum at www.landracing.com/forum Some very helpful information there. Just look out for this guy that goes by bak189, he's a know it all with a big mouth and attitude to match. Just ignore him, he's done nothing but trash my Enfield/Indian build since I joined on there. The other people are very helpful and knowledgeable tho, quite a few Beezers and Triumphs being built on there too. So it could benefit you to see how they are building their bikes for some inspiration.


Scottie J ~ 1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer ~ Drinks Corn
#585769 - 02/15/15 5:25 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: DKA]  
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kevin roberts Online content
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Posts: 3,267
ohio, usa
Originally Posted By DKA
Kevin, Looks like you're on the right path. Just pay attention to the details. If you get all the details right (and there are a lot of them) then the bike should be good.

I'm going to do my best to be at the May event. Are going to attend? Let's try to find each other if you are.
David


agghh

it's the details that are killing me. i've got a brand new set of jugs to use on this, standard bore, 71 mm. but i have to take it down to my neighborhood machinist to find out:

1) whether the bores are parallel to each other
2) whether they're the correct distance apart, given tolerances on the rod big ends
3) whether they're even at right angles to the base
4) whether they're positioned correctly over the cases
5) whether this can be corrected, if it isn't right, and what size the bores will be when that's done, so i can buy pistons . . .

i get one overbore, 0.020, before i'm out of spec for the 650 class.

i'd love to compete in may, but i'm depending on other people to finish stuff for me that takes time. if i don't have a machine ready i will certainly go there and watch.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#585773 - 02/15/15 5:35 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kommando]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
ohio, usa
Originally Posted By kommando
Quote:
and will need some repair to some bad brazing at the mounting tabs.


As did mine, they all have a repair here and that's why they went to the rings, your bottom mount is for 63 only and breaks off due to vibration so try to insulate it with a rubber washer or mount.


i never knew the taxonomy of triumph oil tanks was so complex until i tried to find one for this 64 frame. i just tried the newest oil tank on the frame and you're correct - - there isn't room for the more common C-shaped support bracket under the tank. but it does look like it will work, with some cushioning.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#585792 - 02/15/15 6:25 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Scottie J]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
kevin roberts Online content
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kevin roberts  Online Content

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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
ohio, usa
Originally Posted By Bulldog Kustoms
Kevin, you will want to check out http://www.mapcycle.com/map/

They specialize in British performance parts. They sell steel H-beam rods and forged pistons which you are going to need for racing LSR. I'm actually going to be buying some BSA rods and pistons for my Enfield from them when I finally build the performance motor for that.


hi bulldog

i had a conversation with marino at MAP the other day. i'll be buying pistons, rods, valves, and a crank from him. or maybe not pistons, as all of his are 10.5:1 and megacycle wants a higher ratio for their cam. but i hope he can help me find some, or find someone who might make some, maybe.

Quote:
Also, if you haven't already, check out the LSR forum at www.landracing.com/forum Some very helpful information there. Just look out for this guy that goes by bak189, he's a know it all with a big mouth and attitude to match. Just ignore him, he's done nothing but trash my Enfield/Indian build since I joined on there. The other people are very helpful and knowledgeable tho, quite a few Beezers and Triumphs being built on there too. So it could benefit you to see how they are building their bikes for some inspiration.


i have just joined that forum a minute ago, as speedrattle, because somebody already scooped me on kevin. i'll look for you there.

what are you doing with the indian? those were beautiful machines.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
#585817 - 02/15/15 7:52 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 208
DKA Offline
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DKA  Offline
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Posts: 208
North Carolina
Bulldog,
I have been keeping up with your build threads and I felt sorry for you being smacked around on landracing.com. I think that most of the guys, including BAK, are very experienced and knowledgable. But a lot of them get their feathers ruffled when someone new comes in and announces he is going to kick ass. As time has progressed it seems that everyone including Bak has offered good friendly advise and you have used it. Now, I can't wait to watch your Enfield roar off toward the white horizon. Please make me envious of your speeds.

Kevin, listen to Bulldog. There is an ungodly amount of good information on landracing.com as well as this wonderful forum.

And remember that there is no detail small enough to not f**k up a weekend.
DA

#585841 - 02/15/15 10:28 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 750
noisy norton Offline
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noisy norton  Offline
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Posts: 750
Riverside, CA.
Bulldog,
One of the "problems" with landracing.com is the fact that most of the people on there are experienced racers. As they have seen and done most everything and tend to offer honest but blunt advice. Sometimes, as DKA says, they ruffle feathers and if you can see past that you can learn a lot.

I'm enjoying this build and yours. I'm eager to see how they both work out and hoping to see some fast speeds.

I love the title "mail-order LSR". If I could only figure how to mail-order a few records.


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
#585845 - 02/15/15 10:48 pm Re: mail-order LSR [Re: noisy norton]  
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Posts: 78
Scottie J Offline
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Denver, CO USA
Originally Posted By kevin


hi bulldog

i had a conversation with marino at MAP the other day. i'll be buying pistons, rods, valves, and a crank from him. or maybe not pistons, as all of his are 10.5:1 and megacycle wants a higher ratio for their cam. but i hope he can help me find some, or find someone who might make some, maybe.



what are you doing with the indian? those were beautiful machines.



I believe MAP does their own machining in house and I know they sell a 12:1 big bore piston, you should ask if you can get that dome on a smaller bore.

An this is what I have done with the Indian so far.




Originally Posted By DKA
Bulldog,
I have been keeping up with your build threads and I felt sorry for you being smacked around on landracing.com. I think that most of the guys, including BAK, are very experienced and knowledgable. But a lot of them get their feathers ruffled when someone new comes in and announces he is going to kick ass. As time has progressed it seems that everyone including Bak has offered good friendly advise and you have used it. Now, I can't wait to watch your Enfield roar off toward the white horizon. Please make me envious of your speeds.

Kevin, listen to Bulldog. There is an ungodly amount of good information on landracing.com as well as this wonderful forum.

And remember that there is no detail small enough to not f**k up a weekend.
DA



Originally Posted By noisy norton
Bulldog,
One of the "problems" with landracing.com is the fact that most of the people on there are experienced racers. As they have seen and done most everything and tend to offer honest but blunt advice. Sometimes, as DKA says, they ruffle feathers and if you can see past that you can learn a lot.

I'm enjoying this build and yours. I'm eager to see how they both work out and hoping to see some fast speeds.

I love the title "mail-order LSR". If I could only figure how to mail-order a few records.



I hope I didn't come across as "bashing" BAK, because he is a very knowledgeable guy and is very educated in the land speed game. I personally think his personality comes from just being an old man with an old naggy wife. grin All kidding aside, I have learned a HUGE wealth of knowledge from that forum, and is why I recommended it. It is mostly helpful knowledgeable people, but you you are going to hear things that you don't want to hear. Whether that be snide comments, or proven facts that are going to shatter your ideas of how you going to "make something work". Don't worry, I think I only get grief because I'm building an Enfield. But, I'm not like most people so why not build an underdog? smile


Scottie J ~ 1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer ~ Drinks Corn
#585864 - 02/16/15 1:39 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Scottie J]  
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Posts: 750
noisy norton Offline
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Riverside, CA.
You didn't come across as a Bak basher. I've had the pleasure of talking with Bak a number of times at El Mirage. His name is Bob Bakker. He's been around bikes forever and is incredibly knowledgeable. He is also honest in his opinions.

There should be no grief over an Enfield. I believe it was a double engined Enfield that was the first naked bike over 200. LSR has lots of underdogs. Somebody gets an idea that they can make particular bike go fast. I run an old Weslake speedway engine in a sidecar. Why? I want to see how fast I can make it go. When you get to Bonneville you'll find lots of underdogs.

DKA is also a mine of info on Triumphs. And I'm sure a lot of it would translate to an Enfield. As he said its all in the details.


God rides a Triumph but wishes it was a Norton.
#585867 - 02/16/15 1:51 am Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
kevin roberts Online content
BritBike Forum member
kevin roberts  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,267
ohio, usa
Ooh

Nice looking bike.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?
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