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Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 #575486
12/07/14 9:59 pm
12/07/14 9:59 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,851
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content OP
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kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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from a 2007 thread:

Originally Posted By: John Healy
We are about to re-publish the 4 to 5 speed article in Vintage Bike. It isn't difficult, if you follow a few simple guidelines. A little bit of simple machine work needs to be done to the cases to increase some clearances, but well within the scope of a decent mechanic.


Hi, John,

Which issue of Vintage Bike contains this article? I've been reading through the back issue tables of contents, haven't found it ... yet ... .

Thanks,


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
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Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575487
12/07/14 10:05 pm
12/07/14 10:05 pm
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Posts: 2,851
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content OP
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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Never mind!

2004-4 pub. spring 2007
Profile: Caution – test rider – Jock Copland wrung out the bikes and took a toll on his mates as well, by Mick Duckworth; Kevin Cameron on why vintage iron and modern oil don’t mix; Snuffy Smith’s Tiger Tales, part 2, in which our hero spends 33 hours on a single seater, with whoopee cushion; Tech Tip – John Healy on lacing a Triumph or BSA rear conical hub; How the BSA Gold Star got its name;
Tech Tip by John Healy on how to make a five-speed from a four (reprint, updated).

Last edited by kurt fischer; 12/07/14 10:06 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575495
12/07/14 11:54 pm
12/07/14 11:54 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,532
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

fefsa
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why switch from a four to a five in the first place? do you plan on gearing up for a road race machine?

i've had the first gear layshaft driving dog in my five-speed 72 explode on me (shifting into first, from a stop), and it sure seems like a lousy design. having it break up at speed could easily crack open the cases, it seems to me.

i've considered going the other way-- taking out the five and putting in a four.


live every day.
die only once.
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575498
12/08/14 12:14 am
12/08/14 12:14 am
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Mississauga, Ontario.
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Easier to ride with a 5 speed for me anyway less holes between the gears.
Would like to have a five speed in my A 65.

Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575511
12/08/14 4:55 am
12/08/14 4:55 am
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i had my 4 speed box converted to 5 speed on my racing outfit the only thing i changed was to have the mainshaft made with a norton spline and clutch as the triumph clutch kept shearing the key no matter what was done to stop it, and i also replaced the needle rollers after 25 years of hard racing
baz

Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kevin roberts] #575526
12/08/14 8:35 am
12/08/14 8:35 am
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Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
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I'm thinking of going 4-to-5-speed on my Bitsa 650, for one thing, the '68 motor has the light flywheel crank, and I figured maybe having 5 speeds would be nice. By comparison, my '69 TR6R with the normal heavy crank seems more tractable.

Kevin, I recall that when the 5-speed first came out in 1972, some of the first ones did indeed lock up and bust the cases so there was a warranty fix kit for the early numbers -- maybe yours still has the old early design and never got the update?


Last edited by kurt fischer; 12/08/14 8:38 am.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575533
12/08/14 9:37 am
12/08/14 9:37 am
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John Healy Online content

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{quote] the triumph clutch kept shearing the key no matter what was done to stop it[/quote]

Where this could be a problem this problem can be avoided by not lapping the tapers and torquing the clutch nut to 90 foot pounds.


Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575534
12/08/14 9:48 am
12/08/14 9:48 am
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John Healy Online content

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Kurt one doesn't need much in the way of instruction to swap the 4 to a 5. In fact all of the work required could be done with a half round file.

The mainshaft 5 speed high gear is larger in diameter and where it passes through the crankcase must be opened up. Also the mainshaft first gear is larger in diameter and where it passes through the inner cover must be opened up. Best done with proper tools, but a bit of craftsmanship with a file will do the job.

Then all you need is ALL the bits that make up a 5 speed: Complete shifting mechanism in outer cover, a 5 speed high gear bearing, 5 speed quadrant in the inner cover and all the gears, shafts, forks and cam plate.


Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575539
12/08/14 10:24 am
12/08/14 10:24 am
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ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

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Originally Posted By: kurt fischer

Kevin, I recall that when the 5-speed first came out in 1972, some of the first ones did indeed lock up and bust the cases so there was a warranty fix kit for the early numbers -- maybe yours still has the old early design and never got the update?


Shoot, maybe so. What my bonneville has is identical to the gearbox internals pictured in the 1973 140 books, and I've never heard of a fix.

The little dog is an inherently weak part. Id gotten into the bad habit of snicking the box into first on a running motor to unstick the clutch in the morning I(worn grooves in the basket) and one day the first gear dog simply shattered into three pieces. Four speeds don't use one. Bob Raber in san Jose cautioned me about the box and said the best fix was to drop in a four speed.

Do you have any idea what the warranty fix consisted of? I've been apprehensive of a repeat at speed ever since.


live every day.
die only once.
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kevin roberts] #575545
12/08/14 10:44 am
12/08/14 10:44 am
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Posts: 2,851
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content OP
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kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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Kevin, I don't know, or maybe knew once but forgot, what was in that 5-speed warranty fix kit. We did replace at least one set of cases warranty, 'way back then at the old Arlington Motor Sports. Maybe someone else here who was a Triumph dealer then knows better than I do?

My knowledge of Triumphs is pretty scant post-1970.

As to breaking the clutch free before starting cold,I select second gear, pull the lever, and rock the bike back-and-forth til the clutch frees, then I roll it out of the garage 20 feet or so, put it back in neutral, and then start. Also, I almost never go from neutral to first, but usually from neutral to second, then second to first. Less grinding and crunching that way.


Last edited by kurt fischer; 12/08/14 11:37 am.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575548
12/08/14 11:22 am
12/08/14 11:22 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,264
Running from demons in WNY
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As the story goes; some of the early 5 speed gears were not heat treated properly and broke very quickly.Inventory bikes in the USA had the gears sent out and heated treated. Triumph in the UK got wind of the problem and made changes.
I owned a 74 Trident in the late 70's and beat on it hard including drag strip abuse and never had any transmission problems..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575552
12/08/14 12:16 pm
12/08/14 12:16 pm
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I have that copy of Vintage Bike, I could scan it you need it.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575554
12/08/14 12:35 pm
12/08/14 12:35 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,851
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content OP
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kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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Shel, that would be great, thanks!

PM sent.


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575564
12/08/14 2:31 pm
12/08/14 2:31 pm
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John Healy Online content

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There have been several iterations of the 5 speed gear set besides the original CP1000 update kit.

The factory CP1000 kit consisted of the layshaft first gear dog (57-4661), lay shaft first (57-4654), layshaft shift fork (57-4660), main shaft first-second (57-4653), layshaft second (57-4657) and lay shafts third (57-4647) were replaced - parts numbers given are for the update parts.

It was as much the design of the gears as anything to do with heat treating. Tri-Cor did not offer any solution like heat treating the original gear set. They did not have suitable spare parts in stock to replace all of the gear sets that had broken. The factory was reticent to put more of the original parts into the system as many failures include broken crankcases.

To fix customers bikes dealers were stealing parts out of bikes on the sales floor. The first solution didn't come until they produced the CP1000 kit (CP stands for carton pack). Remember all this was happening as BSA was broke and discontinuing production of the A65, etc.. A lot of these bikes had 4 speed transmission put in them so they could be sold.

There have been about six iterations of the high gear. The most important one was the change in the change created by a new bearing being used. The other major change was when they introduced the "O" ring behind the sprocket lock washer and nut.

There have been several iterations of the layshaft and lay shaft high gear. First they made the high gear wider. Also the high gear would slip over and capture the rotating gear next to it and lock the bike in two gears at once. The spines were mdified and incorporated a circlip which fixed the position on the high gear.

Also, beside the original factory parts there have been at least two other suppliers of 5 speed replacement parts. One who used an english manufacturer and one who had the whole gear set made in Taiwan.

I realize as I write this the the information isn't that helpful, but we are busy and I do not have time to fill in the rest, but at least you can get an idea of the journey you will be on looking for a gear set. More as time is available.

Last edited by John Healy; 12/08/14 2:35 pm.

Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: John Healy] #575568
12/08/14 3:01 pm
12/08/14 3:01 pm
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Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Online content OP
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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Thanks, John, very helpful!

I have the 5-speed conversion on my list, but it's pretty much at the bottom of the list, looking at time, effort, learning curve, money, risks.

Busy in December? A good sign.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 12/08/14 3:24 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575903
12/11/14 2:02 pm
12/11/14 2:02 pm
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lrutt Offline
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wow, I've always wondered about this change but between this and the fact that it doesn't provide any 'overdrive' just an extra gear.

Think I'll pass.

Good reading though.


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Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #575925
12/11/14 5:19 pm
12/11/14 5:19 pm
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John Healy Online content

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Quote:
wow, I've always wondered about this change but between this and the fact that it doesn't provide any 'overdrive' just an extra gear.


Think about it... Install a 5 speed. Change the gearbox sprocket up a tooth. Use 4th as high and 5th as the over drive.


Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: lrutt] #575935
12/11/14 7:06 pm
12/11/14 7:06 pm
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If I lived in the land of flat, straight roads a four or five speed would make no difference. Out here with very winding roads with switch backs and huge elevation gains and loses, 5,000 feet in 13 miles, I am rarely in the "right" gear on the four speed. The five speed is a delight. When I hit the Lotto, the 68 will be a five speed.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: John Healy] #581513
01/18/15 10:59 am
01/18/15 10:59 am
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kurt fischer Online content OP
#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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OK, as I understand it, the 1976-onward 5-speed would have the desirable upgrades, as well as left shift. If I find one (1976-), would I be able to keep right shift when converting my 4-speed '68 to 5-speed?


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #583200
01/29/15 4:14 pm
01/29/15 4:14 pm
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#irideslow
kurt fischer  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted By: kurt fischer
OK, as I understand it, the 1976-onward 5-speed would have the desirable upgrades, as well as left shift. If I find one (1976-), would I be able to keep right shift when converting my 4-speed '68 to 5-speed?


Someone had responded here that this (left shift/right shift) would be no problem, but I don't see the post now, thank you, whoever you are ...


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Installing a 5-speed in a 4-speed 650 [Re: kurt fischer] #583261
01/30/15 12:40 am
01/30/15 12:40 am
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No problem changing a R/H shift to 5 speed. Besides the gearbox internal parts you need the driver block, plungers and springs in the outer cover.


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