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Too much oil after rebuild? #575875
12/11/14 8:09 am
12/11/14 8:09 am
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
O
Ozzybiker Offline OP
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Victoria, Australia
Hi folks,
I am just new to the board so here goes.
Took delivery of my "restored" and very original and matching numbers 1957 T100 Tiger last year.
Looked very pretty on E-Bay and even better when she arrived home.
However the internals of the engine were not in good shape with the usual worn cams and poorly honed cylinder linings with dodgey rings etc.

She has now had a proper and professional rebuild at considerable cost.

The "run in" period as per handbook is 1000 miles at varying speeds up to 50mph

Well I have done 500 miles so far with nothing over 50mph as directed using Mono 50 Valvoline oil

Each 100 mile ride uses about 400-500ml(1pint) of oil maybe a little less.
The plugs are oily and the pipes are dripping.

The question is ... will the rings bed in before I go broke buying oil and plugs?
I have been instructed to be patient.

I will do what is best for this valuable Triumph.
Your opinion please.
Thanks
Richard

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Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575884
12/11/14 10:13 am
12/11/14 10:13 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,499
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
Too late now by the sounds of it but next time use more revs and vary the throttle, you want to use the combustion pressures to get behind those rings and push them into the bores so the x hatching beds them in quickly.

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575898
12/11/14 1:49 pm
12/11/14 1:49 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,550
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Posts: 7,550
scotland
Running in rings means cheapest 20w/50 mineral oil and making it pull hard in bursts.

Maybe too late, after crawling around for 500 Miles.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575911
12/11/14 3:32 pm
12/11/14 3:32 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
I have to agree with what Nick, TT and Kommando said, and break in needs to be accomplished more aggresively and early on, however, even when I didn't know better and babied my break ins, I never had fouled plugs or oil dripping out of the exhausts. You may have a case where the guides were hammered in and out at some overhaul and have scored the guide holes in the head, this will allow a fair amount of oil to be drawn into the cylinders. You should definitely talk to the overhauler, this isn't normal or acceptable, at any cost. Triumphs don't do this...Mark

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575917
12/11/14 4:12 pm
12/11/14 4:12 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,550
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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scotland
Wouldn't be surprised if you're right Markster. It not just burning oil- it's burning a lot of oil.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575936
12/11/14 7:13 pm
12/11/14 7:13 pm
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
O
Ozzybiker Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
Thanks guys
I will try some thinner oil.

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575941
12/11/14 7:24 pm
12/11/14 7:24 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,839
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Offline
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Bishop, Calif.
It's probably too late but take it out and flog it. You can't make it any worse. Right now you are looking at a proper re-hone and new rings. The manual is 57 years old, many things have changed. If it's not broken in at the end of an hour or so, it never will be.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #575992
12/12/14 7:46 am
12/12/14 7:46 am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 528
Maine
M
MikeinBiddeford Online content
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Posts: 528
Maine
I don't know what kind of oil Valvoliene Mono 50 is. Is it synthetic?
When I rebuilt my motor I put in Mobil 1 synthetic oil and the clutch slipped and the rings never seated.
Then I learned I was supposed to use 30 weight non detergent. There was also a bunch of other stuff I had to do, but I don't have time to go into detail. But as a for instance, when you assemble the motor, you clean the cylinders with very hot soapy water until you can wipe them dry with a paper towel and not see any grey residue on the towel. Then you wipe on just enough oil to stop the cylinders from rusting while you put it together. That is right, you want the rings and cylinders to be damn near dry when they first start up. Then you run it hard for the first 25 miles and change the oil.
Maybe John Healy can re-post his article "Dryish"


Please do not believe anything I write. I am a hack but I like to guess the right answers.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: MikeinBiddeford] #576043
12/12/14 4:21 pm
12/12/14 4:21 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,839
Bishop, Calif.
D
desco Offline
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D

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,839
Bishop, Calif.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: desco] #576046
12/12/14 4:36 pm
12/12/14 4:36 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,839
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,839
Bishop, Calif.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576066
12/12/14 7:04 pm
12/12/14 7:04 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
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MarksterTT Offline
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Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
Open the throttle, take a flash light and see if you have oil running down the valve stems or guides, sometimes it is very obvious, same could be done for exhaust but may not be as definitive if your rings haven't seated as the ports may be wet with oil.

Perhaps as John H. has said in the past, your cylinders may not have been properly honed for our old style iron rings, if not they may never seat and you would then need a proper (coarse) hone job and rering followed by a 'proper' break in. Of course, it would be good to know what type piston and rings were installed.

You could try to seat your current rings as Desco recommended but at this point & after so many miles, I would be doubtful of good results, wouldn't hurt to try though...but you had better be willing to open the throttle and get some pressure behind those rings. Have you retorqued the head at any point during your 500 mile break in?

I still think you should contact the rebuilder before anything else, ask him how he honed the cylinders, what grit hone was used (220 would be nice for grey iron rings if I remember J.H's recommendation) or more to the point "Hey, why the heck is this thing an oil pump?" Triumphs don't do this after a decent rebuild so patience is not the right answer in my opinion, if indeed your bike is using and passing as much oil as you say.

In case it were passing oil past the guides and head, you would want a competent shop to install the next o.s. guide, which of course would require reseating the valves. I supppose a guy could try (with head off and springs/valves removed) warming the head and dousing the guides with brake clean or similar to wash any oil from between guides and head followed up by a Loctite wicking type fixative/sealant (hi temp preferrably). Might work I wouldn't know but I'm sure it's been tried.

Desco is right, if break in is done correctly then you will have accomplished the most important part in the first hour or two, and within probably 100 miles. Just stay off the freeways or any high speed steady state throttle situations and DO NOT LUG your engine. Good luck and please let us know what you find...Mark

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: NickL] #576109
12/13/14 1:17 am
12/13/14 1:17 am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 416
OZ
O
Old Cafe Racer Offline
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Posts: 416
OZ
... Unless you want to take advantage of modern synthetic oils with their superior shear resistance, better cooling properties, higher zinc content and better lubrication and lower friction bigt
Personally I don't care how much the oil I put in my beautiful old classic costs and I've done over 8200km in the last two years on her.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=24&id_products=278

davy


Last edited by Old Cafe Racer; 12/13/14 1:20 am.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576196
12/13/14 5:22 pm
12/13/14 5:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 495
Australia
D
downhere Offline
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 495
Australia
And more yawning......

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: downhere] #576213
12/13/14 8:12 pm
12/13/14 8:12 pm
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 416
OZ
O
Old Cafe Racer Offline
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OZ
Each to his own... I didn't start the oil thread/ brand advertisment did I Nick?

davy

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576219
12/13/14 9:59 pm
12/13/14 9:59 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
If you have leakage between the guide and the head (from the head being scored during guide removal), the smoky exhaust will normally become noticeable about one minute after start up.

If that's happening, you can put sealant around the guide and under the lower valve spring collar. It's also worthwhile to remove any internal chamfer on top of the guide bores. I even prefer to sharpen up the outside of the top of the guide like a pencil at about 120 degree included angle, leaving a sharp edge on the guide bore. That stops oil collecting at the top of the guide like a well, and will help.

If that doesn't work, you could have a ring problem. If you'e adventurous, there's always the BONAMI in the carburettor trick. It has been known to work.

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576223
12/13/14 10:24 pm
12/13/14 10:24 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 417
Australia
A
Adrian1 Offline
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Australia
Who did the work?

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: MikeinBiddeford] #576284
12/14/14 5:19 am
12/14/14 5:19 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: MikeinBiddeford

When I rebuilt my motor I put in Mobil 1 synthetic oil and the clutch slipped and the rings never seated.
Then I learned I was supposed to use 30 weight non detergent.
Then you run it hard for the first 25 miles and change the oil.

Yes!
This is why when I worked at T&R Cycle we broke in the rings on every rebuild before telling the owner his bike was ready.
That was the fun part of the job.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576290
12/14/14 6:16 am
12/14/14 6:16 am
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 572
Surrey UK
M
Mattsta Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 572
Surrey UK
Originally Posted By: Ozzybiker
Hi folks,

Each 100 mile ride uses about 400-500ml(1pint) of oil maybe a little less.
The plugs are oily and the pipes are dripping.



There's no way this is right. You have something seriously wrong here.

I'd take it back to the person who rebuilt the engine and demand your money back if he doesn't investigate the problem and put it right.


1952 Triumph T100 in a BSA A7 Frame
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576365
12/14/14 3:40 pm
12/14/14 3:40 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,996
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Maui Hawaii
I've never seen a Triumph no matter how beat up and worn out that smoked. Maybe a little after start-up or on the overrun. There simply isn't enough oil in the top end of a Triumph to cause it to smoke,
Unless...

You have tapered rings installed upside down.

Blocked breather pipe.

Broken rings. I've even seen broken rings where the bike did not smoke, though, so no guarantees.

Since the motor is near new, there is a problem in how the motor was assembled.

I'm a little embarrassed by the lack of expertise in most of the above suggestions.

Cheers,
Bil

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 12/14/14 3:41 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: NickL] #576368
12/14/14 4:02 pm
12/14/14 4:02 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,938
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted By: NickL
Originally Posted By: Pete R


If that doesn't work, you could have a ring problem. If you'e adventurous, there's always the BONAMI in the carburettor trick. It has been known to work.


I was going to suggest that but didn't want the return abuse!
1/2 teaspoonful should do the trick.


Yes the abuse, "don't run with scissors"

Bon Ami will work as the last resort when you really don't have time, money or desire to tear down the engine.
It's also easy for a ring to get bent by careless handling and go unnoticed.


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: NickL] #576657
12/16/14 6:28 am
12/16/14 6:28 am
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 871
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 871
QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: NickL
As a note.... Autobarn have a sale on at the moment, Valvoline XLD 20/50 SG Classic is $9.99 a gallon..


Now, was that an imperial gallon or US gallon? RR laughing


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576855
12/17/14 5:31 pm
12/17/14 5:31 pm
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
O
Ozzybiker Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
Thanks Guys,
Good to know I am not alone.
I am out to try most all the above before another rebuild
btw head was rebuilt also guides should be ok.

Repairer will remain nameless at this stage.

Will keep you posted.

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576970
12/18/14 4:26 pm
12/18/14 4:26 pm
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
M
MarksterTT Offline
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Posts: 564
San Francisco Bay Area
Sorry but if you think the guides 'should' be ok because the head was rebuilt then you need to reread the posts above as that fact is not a guarantee. I'm going to go along with some of Hawaiian's thoughts on initial assembly errors being a strong possibility but having read everything again, I think the best advice was to return to the rebuilder before anything else, as soon as you mess with it he's off the hook...Mark

Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker] #576994
12/18/14 10:02 pm
12/18/14 10:02 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62
melbourne australia
5
58thunderbird Offline
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melbourne australia
Have you confirmed the scavenge pump is working correctly? If it has wet sumped it will also be very sluggish.

Re: Too much oil after rebuild?-still - 57 T100 [Re: Hillbilly bike] #657212
06/17/16 6:47 am
06/17/16 6:47 am
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
O
Ozzybiker Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 16
Victoria, Australia
Cannot afford the oil she uses .. so time for a pull down to check why the high oil consumption and low compression.
Head came off and lots of carbon everywhere and looks like glazed bores all round.(bad advice re - run in after rebuild in 2014.)Time to check rings and pistons.Removed all 8 nuts but could not move the alloy barrel even slightly...cannot use brute force on this alloy baby so where do I go now? Is it binding on the threads maybe? tried rocking and light tapping with rubber mallet but no movement.
Am I missing something?
Any ideas would be appreciated
cheers
Ozzyrider.

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