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#575875 - 12/11/14 8:09 am Too much oil after rebuild?  
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Ozzybiker Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Hi folks,
I am just new to the board so here goes.
Took delivery of my "restored" and very original and matching numbers 1957 T100 Tiger last year.
Looked very pretty on E-Bay and even better when she arrived home.
However the internals of the engine were not in good shape with the usual worn cams and poorly honed cylinder linings with dodgey rings etc.

She has now had a proper and professional rebuild at considerable cost.

The "run in" period as per handbook is 1000 miles at varying speeds up to 50mph

Well I have done 500 miles so far with nothing over 50mph as directed using Mono 50 Valvoline oil

Each 100 mile ride uses about 400-500ml(1pint) of oil maybe a little less.
The plugs are oily and the pipes are dripping.

The question is ... will the rings bed in before I go broke buying oil and plugs?
I have been instructed to be patient.

I will do what is best for this valuable Triumph.
Your opinion please.
Thanks
Richard

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#575876 - 12/11/14 8:22 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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NickL Online content
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Something's wrong there, should be well bedded in by now.
I'd be taking it back to the guy who rebuilt it.
I'm not a believer in 'kid gloves' treatment of a new engine, but that's just an opinion, I don't thrash them but give 'em a fair go.



#575884 - 12/11/14 10:13 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
Too late now by the sounds of it but next time use more revs and vary the throttle, you want to use the combustion pressures to get behind those rings and push them into the bores so the x hatching beds them in quickly.

#575898 - 12/11/14 1:49 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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Running in rings means cheapest 20w/50 mineral oil and making it pull hard in bursts.

Maybe too late, after crawling around for 500 Miles.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#575911 - 12/11/14 3:32 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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MarksterTT Offline
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I have to agree with what Nick, TT and Kommando said, and break in needs to be accomplished more aggresively and early on, however, even when I didn't know better and babied my break ins, I never had fouled plugs or oil dripping out of the exhausts. You may have a case where the guides were hammered in and out at some overhaul and have scored the guide holes in the head, this will allow a fair amount of oil to be drawn into the cylinders. You should definitely talk to the overhauler, this isn't normal or acceptable, at any cost. Triumphs don't do this...Mark

#575917 - 12/11/14 4:12 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Wouldn't be surprised if you're right Markster. It not just burning oil- it's burning a lot of oil.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#575936 - 12/11/14 7:13 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Ozzybiker Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Thanks guys
I will try some thinner oil.

#575941 - 12/11/14 7:24 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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desco Online content
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It's probably too late but take it out and flog it. You can't make it any worse. Right now you are looking at a proper re-hone and new rings. The manual is 57 years old, many things have changed. If it's not broken in at the end of an hour or so, it never will be.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#575992 - 12/12/14 7:46 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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MikeinBiddeford Offline
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I don't know what kind of oil Valvoliene Mono 50 is. Is it synthetic?
When I rebuilt my motor I put in Mobil 1 synthetic oil and the clutch slipped and the rings never seated.
Then I learned I was supposed to use 30 weight non detergent. There was also a bunch of other stuff I had to do, but I don't have time to go into detail. But as a for instance, when you assemble the motor, you clean the cylinders with very hot soapy water until you can wipe them dry with a paper towel and not see any grey residue on the towel. Then you wipe on just enough oil to stop the cylinders from rusting while you put it together. That is right, you want the rings and cylinders to be damn near dry when they first start up. Then you run it hard for the first 25 miles and change the oil.
Maybe John Healy can re-post his article "Dryish"


Please do not believe anything I write. I am a hack but I like to guess the right answers.
#576043 - 12/12/14 4:21 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: MikeinBiddeford]  
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desco Online content
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Bishop, Calif.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#576046 - 12/12/14 4:36 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: desco]  
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1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
#576066 - 12/12/14 7:04 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Open the throttle, take a flash light and see if you have oil running down the valve stems or guides, sometimes it is very obvious, same could be done for exhaust but may not be as definitive if your rings haven't seated as the ports may be wet with oil.

Perhaps as John H. has said in the past, your cylinders may not have been properly honed for our old style iron rings, if not they may never seat and you would then need a proper (coarse) hone job and rering followed by a 'proper' break in. Of course, it would be good to know what type piston and rings were installed.

You could try to seat your current rings as Desco recommended but at this point & after so many miles, I would be doubtful of good results, wouldn't hurt to try though...but you had better be willing to open the throttle and get some pressure behind those rings. Have you retorqued the head at any point during your 500 mile break in?

I still think you should contact the rebuilder before anything else, ask him how he honed the cylinders, what grit hone was used (220 would be nice for grey iron rings if I remember J.H's recommendation) or more to the point "Hey, why the heck is this thing an oil pump?" Triumphs don't do this after a decent rebuild so patience is not the right answer in my opinion, if indeed your bike is using and passing as much oil as you say.

In case it were passing oil past the guides and head, you would want a competent shop to install the next o.s. guide, which of course would require reseating the valves. I supppose a guy could try (with head off and springs/valves removed) warming the head and dousing the guides with brake clean or similar to wash any oil from between guides and head followed up by a Loctite wicking type fixative/sealant (hi temp preferrably). Might work I wouldn't know but I'm sure it's been tried.

Desco is right, if break in is done correctly then you will have accomplished the most important part in the first hour or two, and within probably 100 miles. Just stay off the freeways or any high speed steady state throttle situations and DO NOT LUG your engine. Good luck and please let us know what you find...Mark

#576067 - 12/12/14 7:05 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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As a note.... Autobarn have a sale on at the moment, Valvoline XLD 20/50 SG Classic is $9.99 a gallon. This stuff is all I ever use in my road bikes it is great and stinking cheap.
Everyone I've mentioned it to now uses it in their old bikes, wet clutches and all. Get yourself a few gallons and use it, not these friction modified fancy oils, they are not required.



#576109 - 12/13/14 1:17 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: NickL]  
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Old Cafe Racer Offline
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OZ
... Unless you want to take advantage of modern synthetic oils with their superior shear resistance, better cooling properties, higher zinc content and better lubrication and lower friction bigt
Personally I don't care how much the oil I put in my beautiful old classic costs and I've done over 8200km in the last two years on her.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=24&id_products=278

davy


Last edited by Old Cafe Racer; 12/13/14 1:20 am.
#576125 - 12/13/14 4:43 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Yawn.....



#576196 - 12/13/14 5:22 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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downhere Offline
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And more yawning......

#576213 - 12/13/14 8:12 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: downhere]  
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OZ
Each to his own... I didn't start the oil thread/ brand advertisment did I Nick?

davy

#576214 - 12/13/14 8:32 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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My apologies gentlemen. It won't happen again.



#576219 - 12/13/14 9:59 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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If you have leakage between the guide and the head (from the head being scored during guide removal), the smoky exhaust will normally become noticeable about one minute after start up.

If that's happening, you can put sealant around the guide and under the lower valve spring collar. It's also worthwhile to remove any internal chamfer on top of the guide bores. I even prefer to sharpen up the outside of the top of the guide like a pencil at about 120 degree included angle, leaving a sharp edge on the guide bore. That stops oil collecting at the top of the guide like a well, and will help.

If that doesn't work, you could have a ring problem. If you'e adventurous, there's always the BONAMI in the carburettor trick. It has been known to work.

#576220 - 12/13/14 10:15 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.]  
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Originally Posted By: Pete R


If that doesn't work, you could have a ring problem. If you'e adventurous, there's always the BONAMI in the carburettor trick. It has been known to work.


I was going to suggest that but didn't want the return abuse!
1/2 teaspoonful should do the trick.



#576223 - 12/13/14 10:24 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Who did the work?

#576284 - 12/14/14 5:19 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: MikeinBiddeford]  
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Originally Posted By: MikeinBiddeford

When I rebuilt my motor I put in Mobil 1 synthetic oil and the clutch slipped and the rings never seated.
Then I learned I was supposed to use 30 weight non detergent.
Then you run it hard for the first 25 miles and change the oil.

Yes!
This is why when I worked at T&R Cycle we broke in the rings on every rebuild before telling the owner his bike was ready.
That was the fun part of the job.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
#576290 - 12/14/14 6:16 am Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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Originally Posted By: Ozzybiker
Hi folks,

Each 100 mile ride uses about 400-500ml(1pint) of oil maybe a little less.
The plugs are oily and the pipes are dripping.



There's no way this is right. You have something seriously wrong here.

I'd take it back to the person who rebuilt the engine and demand your money back if he doesn't investigate the problem and put it right.


1952 Triumph T100 in a BSA A7 Frame
#576365 - 12/14/14 3:40 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: Ozzybiker]  
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HawaiianTiger Online content
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I've never seen a Triumph no matter how beat up and worn out that smoked. Maybe a little after start-up or on the overrun. There simply isn't enough oil in the top end of a Triumph to cause it to smoke,
Unless...

You have tapered rings installed upside down.

Blocked breather pipe.

Broken rings. I've even seen broken rings where the bike did not smoke, though, so no guarantees.

Since the motor is near new, there is a problem in how the motor was assembled.

I'm a little embarrassed by the lack of expertise in most of the above suggestions.

Cheers,
Bil

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 12/14/14 3:41 pm.

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#576368 - 12/14/14 4:02 pm Re: Too much oil after rebuild? [Re: NickL]  
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted By: NickL
Originally Posted By: Pete R


If that doesn't work, you could have a ring problem. If you'e adventurous, there's always the BONAMI in the carburettor trick. It has been known to work.


I was going to suggest that but didn't want the return abuse!
1/2 teaspoonful should do the trick.


Yes the abuse, "don't run with scissors"

Bon Ami will work as the last resort when you really don't have time, money or desire to tear down the engine.
It's also easy for a ring to get bent by careless handling and go unnoticed.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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