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Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) #572237
11/14/14 11:24 pm
11/14/14 11:24 pm
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Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Just acquired a cast iron oil pump thanks to a BritBike inmate. smile Took it all apart to find all things well sorted. Did some light lapping. What is the preferred sealant when putting these bits back together? I've heard Loctite being mentioned but don't know the type.

Should I replace the o-ring? Any other tips for a well running pump?




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Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572242
11/15/14 1:05 am
11/15/14 1:05 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,382
Santa Barbara, California
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Wow, I'm so jealous!! Those are so rare, I forgot how stout they look!
My standard oil pump advice is this :
be VERY careful to enlarge the gasket hole for the check ball. The pump can shift slightly when mounting, and the gasket will interfere with the ball, and cause wet sumping. ( IMO, I'd bet that was the cause of many that left the factory Sumping )
Also, yes, replace the oring if it is stiff, another sumping cause.
As far as the body, I'd not use any sealant to assemble the pump, but others might disagree.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572263
11/15/14 9:28 am
11/15/14 9:28 am
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Posts: 4,105
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
The factory sealant was shellac, whatever you use , be sparing, if everything is true and flat you dont need much.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572269
11/15/14 9:50 am
11/15/14 9:50 am
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Scotland
kommando Online content
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I have never used sealant on any oil pump after rebuilding, if its all flat there should be no need.

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572285
11/15/14 12:35 pm
11/15/14 12:35 pm
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Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline
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In industry I have reconditioned many gear pumps where we lapped the plates lightly and used no sealant. Your pump looks very good. If you want a sealant it should be as thin as possible When you assemble, test for binds as you go. You should be able to feel the gear teeth engaging but there should be no significant binds. When you torque the mounting screws make sure they are meticulously clean and apply a little loctite to the threads. Checking the gasket goes w/o saying.

Mr Mike

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572501
11/16/14 4:32 pm
11/16/14 4:32 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Some more tips on pump assembly.
Several trial build ups are a good idea, start first with just the drive spindle, then add a gear at a time. With pumps which have run for a long time the exact timing of each gear relative to the others can make all the difference. Sit down with a cold brew and test each pair , advancing one gear against its partner 1 tooth at a time to find the optimum smooth running position.

Also be aware that if the pump body has been lapped this can remove clearance for the gears to the point where they may bind, its easy enough to lap the gears till they run free but you want to find this out on the bench, not at the side of the road.Again adding one gear at a time will show if any particular one is tight.

The whole process can be labelled "selective assembly", the pump should turn fairly freely , not be loose, but a one finger pressure on the end of a 4 inch spanner to turn the spindle would be an acceptable degree of resistance.
HTH
GE


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572543
11/16/14 10:06 pm
11/16/14 10:06 pm
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Cape Carteret, NC
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Very good points by GE!

Mr mike

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: gavin eisler] #572546
11/16/14 10:39 pm
11/16/14 10:39 pm
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Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: gavin eisler
Some more tips on pump assembly.
Several trial build ups are a good idea, start first with just the drive spindle, then add a gear at a time. With pumps which have run for a long time the exact timing of each gear relative to the others can make all the difference. Sit down with a cold brew and test each pair , advancing one gear against its partner 1 tooth at a time to find the optimum smooth running position.

Also be aware that if the pump body has been lapped this can remove clearance for the gears to the point where they may bind, its easy enough to lap the gears till they run free but you want to find this out on the bench, not at the side of the road.Again adding one gear at a time will show if any particular one is tight.

The whole process can be labelled "selective assembly", the pump should turn fairly freely , not be loose, but a one finger pressure on the end of a 4 inch spanner to turn the spindle would be an acceptable degree of resistance.
HTH
GE


Thanks. I'll do just that. What is the torque on the end plate bolt?

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572602
11/17/14 10:22 am
11/17/14 10:22 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,105
argyll. scotland, uk
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I dont use a torque setting, its not much more than a light nip, the end plates will distort and cause binding if you use more, loctite is a must for final assembly, a light smear of grease on the gears is also a given for the final assembly.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572646
11/17/14 2:48 pm
11/17/14 2:48 pm
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Posts: 851
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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I agree with all the above comments and my experience of rebuilding A65, B44 & B40 oil pumps matches what Gavin has said.

A few things I have done to help oil pump performance is as follows:-
- because the threads on the pump are often marginal, I have tapped them out to M5 and used mushroom head socket caps to hold the pump together, together with thread locker.
- as suggested, it may be necessary to lap the end of the oil pump body, top and end plate. Although this is a good idea I have found it very hard to ensure material is taken off equally on all sides of the pump. Given the A65 pump can generate over 60psi, the slightest imperfection could mean pressure loss from the end plate or pump top contact area.
- its worthwhile testing the pump in situ by fitting the pump to the cases without the crank worm drive. The pump can be spun with a cordless drill by attaching a rubber tube to the tacho drive with the other end held by the drill. With oil lines connected and OPRV in place, spinning the pump should result in pressure build up, oil weeping from the timing side bush and oil blow off from the OPRV. This procedure will also reveal any leaks from the oil pump, anything more than a few drops coming from the end plate or top mounting will need fixing.
- As suggested, shellac was originally used to seal the pump and as an alternative I have used Loctite 518 anerobic sealant which is intended to seal close-fitting joints between rigid metal faces and flanges. The advantage with this type of sealant is that it only hardens on the gasket faces so there is much less chance of blocking the pump and galleries compared to using silicone.

Last edited by gunner; 11/17/14 2:51 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572680
11/17/14 7:08 pm
11/17/14 7:08 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,542
Auckland NZ
Ignoramus Online content
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just to add my opinion ...I am definitely in the NO sealant camp on this one with condition as is


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572717
11/17/14 9:41 pm
11/17/14 9:41 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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Just to give a little balance, we have done a tool room build ( theoretically), in the shop, chuck it together and run some brasso through it, was the next best thing


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572720
11/17/14 9:52 pm
11/17/14 9:52 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Shellac is not too hard to find, any woodworking finish shop sells french polish, ( Bellens I think) sells it in the states, or make your own, buy the flakes from a finishing supplier and mix it thick with raw alchohol. , part of the fun of owning a BSA.
I use whatever blue stuff is handy, RTV holds together fish tanks.
Wipe the surfaces with vinegar, dry, then apply almost zero blue stuff.
White stuff works as well.
RTV is the devil. less is more.


Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/17/14 10:21 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572727
11/17/14 10:24 pm
11/17/14 10:24 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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If you need the fine detail on the flakes , its a toss up between garnet and button, the concours judges prefer button, it goes with the Well seal. The garnet is more gap filing in a thixotropic sort of way.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/17/14 10:28 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: gavin eisler] #572739
11/17/14 11:35 pm
11/17/14 11:35 pm
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Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Thanks all for the great info. Anyone know the tap size needed to clean out the threads? Can't find any info in the manual.

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572749
11/18/14 1:36 am
11/18/14 1:36 am
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Gnashville
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Shellac=Indian Head gasket cement, at least in the US. Use a small paint brush to apply.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #572758
11/18/14 3:03 am
11/18/14 3:03 am
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Norway
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My aluminum bodied DD pump has 3/16" 32 tpi.

Regards


There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: NickL] #573183
11/21/14 9:27 am
11/21/14 9:27 am
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Toronto, Canada
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Bola Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: NickL
I think it's 2BA

That would've been my guess but not so. After some digging... it's 10-32.

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #573188
11/21/14 10:12 am
11/21/14 10:12 am
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New Jersey USA
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A worn 2BA = 10-32

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #573305
11/21/14 11:53 pm
11/21/14 11:53 pm
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Sydney Australia
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One would hope the oil pump bolts had not been in & out enough to cause significant wear on the threads.
Cross refference the part number of the bolts to this list and then print yourself out a copy as it is an orphaned page and may not be there forever.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #573662
11/24/14 2:21 pm
11/24/14 2:21 pm
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Ontario , Canada
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I have lapped the body and need to reduce the width of the gears on the feed side. The gear with the hole thru is easy to lap.
How do you best reduce the width of the gears that have the drive shaft? obviously a cylindrical grinder would be best but I don't have access to one.

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: RGSROB] #573664
11/24/14 2:30 pm
11/24/14 2:30 pm
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Maybe a surface grinder???

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: Bola] #573666
11/24/14 2:40 pm
11/24/14 2:40 pm
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Scotland
kommando Online content
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Surface grinder cannot get to the end faces of the gear on the shaft, one option is to lap it onto a steel plate with a hole for the shaft with wet and dry supported by the plate.

Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: RGSROB] #573790
11/24/14 11:41 pm
11/24/14 11:41 pm
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Originally Posted By: RGSROB
I have lapped the body and need to reduce the width of the gears on the feed side. The gear with the hole thru is easy to lap.
How do you best reduce the width of the gears that have the drive shaft? obviously a cylindrical grinder would be best but I don't have access to one.


With an oil stone.
Put some tape around the side of the stone to stop it wearing the shaft .
Run the gear along the stone carefully rotating it as you go.
Huis way you use the shaft to keep the stone square to the shaft.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Recommended sealant for oil pump halves (A65) [Re: RGSROB] #573826
11/25/14 7:38 am
11/25/14 7:38 am
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Bowral NSW Australia
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Originally Posted By: RGSROB
I have lapped the body and need to reduce the width of the gears on the feed side. The gear with the hole thru is easy to lap.
How do you best reduce the width of the gears that have the drive shaft? obviously a cylindrical grinder would be best but I don't have access to one.


Get a bit of glass plate,then using a glass drill, drill a hole through it the same size as the shaft.
Bit of diamond or other lapping paste on the glass and away you go!
Be very thorough cleaning the gear before you're tempted to try the fit in the pump. An ultrasonic cleaner would be best if you've got access to one.


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
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