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Shop manual anomaly #556238
08/02/14 1:09 pm
08/02/14 1:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,849
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content OP
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Bishop, Calif.
1963 to 1970
In the capacities section next to Primary chaincase it lists;
5/8 pint (350 c.c.) According to my measuring cup 5/8 pint is about 290 c.c. I used to know this but I did not write it down.
Thanks.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
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Measuring cup anomaly ;) [Re: desco] #556242
08/02/14 1:18 pm
08/02/14 1:18 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: desco
According to my measuring cup 5/8 pint is about 290 c.c.

1 Imperial pint is 568.26 cc.; you do the math(s). grin

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Measuring cup anomaly ;) [Re: Stuart] #556244
08/02/14 1:28 pm
08/02/14 1:28 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,849
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content OP
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568.26 X .625 = 355.16
Thanks Stuart, I new it was something simple.
Glad your up. What time is it over there?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Measuring cup anomaly ;) [Re: Stuart] #556246
08/02/14 1:52 pm
08/02/14 1:52 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,734
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content

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Originally Posted By: Stuart
1 Imperial pint is 568.26 cc.; you do the math(s).
A rhyme we learn as schoolchildren in the U.S. to remember important details of our beloved measuring system is "A pint's a pound the world around." That is, since there are 16 oz. in a pound, there are also 16 (fluid) oz. in a pint. Except, only much later in life did I learn that's the case only in the U.S. (and Canada?), not the world around. In the UK there are 20, not 16, oz. in a pint. Can imagine the sense of betrayal I felt when I realized my elementary school teachers had lied to me with this rhyme?

Switching to neutral system of measurement (i.e. metric, as used by the neutral Swiss and Swedes), there are ~568 cc in one of their 20-oz. pints, which means there are 28.4 cc/UKoz. A U.S. 16-oz. pint has ~473 cc, which means there are 29.6 cc/USoz. That is, even though our pints differ by ~20% in volume our ounces differ by only ~4%.

The significance of this for us is that if a shop manual gives the necessary amount of fluid in ounces (e.g. for the forks) you don't have to worry whether it meant Imperial or U.S. ounces because what's a difference of 4%, anyway? You do have to worry if you get a bit too clever and convert to cc assuming a pint's a pound the world around.

Re: Measuring cup anomaly ;) [Re: desco] #556366
08/03/14 10:47 am
08/03/14 10:47 am
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Posts: 197
Tampa, Florida
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568.26 / 8 = 71.03 * 5 = 355.16 There you go. 290cc is American standard. 350cc is imperial measurement.


ASE Automotive Master Tech.
Never regret anything in your life because at one point, that was what you wished for.
Always tell the truth, even if your voice shakes.
1977 T140V
More than one Shop Manual Anomaly [Re: bonneville15] #567547
10/14/14 2:27 am
10/14/14 2:27 am
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Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
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In doing some searching on primary chaincase maintenance for my '64 TR6, I came across this thread where everybody figured out that imperial pints are different than U.S. pints. So the consensus was worked out that the FSM meant 5/8 of an imperial pint, or 350cc's would be the proper amount of oil for a 650 unit primary chaincase.

But . . . not so fast -- there seems to be another FSM anomaly. Several other threads on here say that the 350cc quantity is wrong also. Evidently, if one goes by the use of the level plug, 150cc's will fill the chaincase to where oil starts coming out the level plug hole.

It seems that the level plug threads are fragile and easily stripped out, so people prefer to drain the case and then dump in the prescribed amount of oil without disturbing the level plug. In so doing, it appears that we are overfilling the case if we use the amount called for in the FSM.

When I first put my bike together, I looked up the oil capacity in the book and carefully measured and poured in 350cc's. Now I read that this is more than twice as much as should be used, and could make for rougher gear shifts.

At the first two oil changes, I removed the whole chaincase, the first time to switch back to my original case, the second time to swap springs in the pressure plate. Of course this meant pulling off the DS exhaust, the foot peg, the rear brake lever, etc. Now I'm ready to change oil again and check the primary chain tension. I was hoping to do it the easy way this time. So, a bunch of questions:
  • My finger is too big to slip through the inspection cover and get behind the primary chain to estimate freeplay. What's the trick way to measure the chain's freeplay? Some kind of wire hook?
  • The book says 3/8" freeplay at the tightest part of the chain. Somewhere, I came up with 1/2" (that's what I had in my notebook but I'm not sure why). Is 3/8" correct?
  • RF Whatley posted several times that the best way to check your oil level in the primary is visually with a bright light. That's easy enough on a Harley, but I'd need X-ray vision on this TR6 case. Where exactly can you look in and see the oil level? I have two inspection plugs, but all they let me see are the top of the chain and the middle of the pressure plate.
  • Can anyone verify the right amount of oil, or is it best to carefully use the level plug and hope for the best?
  • If I use the level plug, should the bike be on its wheels, being held up by a helper? Is it supposed to be on the centerstand? The FSM is a little vague on this.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: More than one Shop Manual Anomaly [Re: desco] #567549
10/14/14 2:54 am
10/14/14 2:54 am
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,092
Christchurch NZ
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Well I'll be, never knew I was overfilling the Primary. I no longer have a level plug, Ray are you able to use your to confirm?

I use a wire hook sort of idea to check chain tension. At 3/8 free play I have found I still hear a little slap so I go a touch more.

I have an LED pen light I use to check oil level as per RF. If I hold my tongue in the right position and ensure the alignment of Venus I can see the bottom row of the chain on top of the blade and the oil level with the blade.

I've always checked all levels on the centre stand.

Hopefully that helps a little

Rod


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How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567627
10/14/14 3:57 pm
10/14/14 3:57 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Offline

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Rod,

Yes, I do still have a workable level plug and I will check how many cc's of ATF bring the level up to the hole. I did a little measuring and found that there is really a negligible difference to the oil level whether the bike is on the centerstand or with wheels on the floor. Here's a rough sketch (not to scale):

[Linked Image]

I used the acorn nut on the lower stator stud as a reference for the front of the PCC. With the bike on the centerstand, the acorn is 11 11/16" above the floor. The level plug is 11 3/16" above the floor. They are 11" apart horizontally.

With the bike on the floor and a helper holding the bike vertical, I measured again. The acorn was now 10 11/16" above the floor, and the level plug was 10 1/8" above the floor.

So, on the centerstand, they are 1/2" apart vertically. On the floor, they are 9/16" apart vertically. Another way to say this is that the level plug, relative to the front acorn, is 1/16" higher when the bike is on the centerstand. If you think of this as a triangle (bottom of sketch), the angular difference is 3/10 of one degree. Essentially, no difference at all, and certainly close enough for hand grenades or horseshoes as the saying goes. If your centerstand, like many I have seen, is slightly bent and doesn't elevate the back wheel much, the difference is even less.

[Linked Image]
__________________

Now, for checking chain tension, the book shows this:

[Linked Image]

I must have fat fingers. If I poke a finger down the hole far enough to do this, my finger will be permanently stuck in the inspection hole. So I made up a wire hook in a tee shape so that I won't drop it into the chaincase. I can use my little Starrett depth scale, held vertically against the back of the inspection hole and measure down to the chain sideplate. Then with the hook pulling the chain up, I measure again. Yikes! There is 7/8" free play. Some idiot has waited too long to check this.

While I was at it, I made a dipstick, again shaped so that I cannot drop it into the chaincase. I lower this down the upper inspection hole, with the dipstick vertical and against the upper and lower strands of the chain, till it hits bottom. Then I pull it out and see how much oil is on the end of the stick. After I fill the PCC to the level plug hole, I will measure with the stick and make a reference mark where the oil level is. I tried, and I just can't see down in there with my trifocals!

Here's my redneck tools:

[Linked Image]

That thing at the bottom is for removing/installing the inspection covers.

I'll edit this later after I see how that level plug works out.

Ray

10/15/2014 Edited to add note: Today I removed the level plug, drained the primary chain case, adjusted the chain (I went for 1/2" free play with everything cold, and checked in about eight different spots on the chain -- all were the same). When I refilled, I measured in 310cc's of ATF before any came out the level plug hole. So, I conclude that the FSM is close to right. They call for 350cc's, and that additional 40cc's will not raise the oil level an appreciable amount. With oil level correct per the level plug, there is 1 1/4" depth of oil directly below the chain inspection plug. I marked my newly made dipstick accordingly and will not be using the level plug anymore. To say this another way, if the dipstick is run in through the chain inspection hole till it hits the bottom of the case, it will have 1 1/4" of oil on it when removed and checked. This works for my bike -- YMMV.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567677
10/14/14 9:20 pm
10/14/14 9:20 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,178
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reverb Offline
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...1/2" for the rear chain; seems too much for the primary. That 1/2 is measured in the middle of the chain in the low part of the chain not the top.

in the pre units is 190cc, but why so picky about primary oil? it s only for the chain and with all the splash occurring there, you always have enough oil.

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: reverb] #567681
10/14/14 10:26 pm
10/14/14 10:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: reverb
...1/2" for the rear chain; seems too much for the primary.

1/2" is for the primary chain, it's waaay too tight for the rear chain.

From the '78 Owner's Handbook, page 19:-

"Primary chain
... The correct chain adjustment is 1/2in (1.2cm) free movement. ...

Rear chain
... The correct adjustment for the rear chain is 3/4in (1.8cm) free movement with the machine on its wheels and the chain at its tightest point (my italics) or 1-3/4in (4.3 cm) with the machine on the stand and the chain at its slackest point. ..."

You're (or you should be) measuring the primary chain slack when the engine's cold. The engine expands when it's hot, the primary sprockets' centres move further apart; if the primary chain doesn't have enough slack cold to accommodate the expansion and still have the equivalent of one pitch slack, you risk loading the main and clutch bearings unnecessarily.

Likewise the rear chain:-

. According to Renold when the company manufactured and had a technical department in GB, the chain must have the equivalent of one pitch (i.e. 5/8" for a standard 5/8" x 3/8" rear chain) at the tightest point.

. The tightest point occurs when the centres of the two sprockets and the swinging arm pivot are in a straight line; if you want to measure this, in practice, you need either air shocks. or a tall, heavy friend capable of both compressing the shocks. and holding the bike up while you check the chain slack.

. The reason for the 1-3/4" "with the machine on the stand" is because, on all Triumphs, the gearbox sprocket is a relatively large distance from the swinging arm pivot; so, when "the machine [is] on the stand", the sprockets centres are relatively far out of line with the swinging arm pivot.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: Stuart] #567689
10/15/14 12:00 am
10/15/14 12:00 am
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 348
Irene, South Africa
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Originally Posted By: Stuart


. The tightest point occurs when the centres of the two sprockets and the swinging arm pivot are in a straight line; if you want to measure this, in practice, you need either air shocks. or a tall, heavy friend capable of both compressing the shocks. and holding the bike up while you check the chain slack.


I use ratchet tiedown straps to compress the rear springs and lift the swingarm.

Rob C

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: robcurrie] #567699
10/15/14 4:25 am
10/15/14 4:25 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Rob,

Originally Posted By: robcurrie
I use ratchet tiedown straps to compress the rear springs and lift the swingarm.

bigt

Regards,

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: Stuart] #567705
10/15/14 6:13 am
10/15/14 6:13 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,801
Norfolk, UK
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Originally Posted By: Stuart
From the '78 Owner's Handbook, page 19:-

"Primary chain
... The correct chain adjustment is 1/2in (1.2cm) free movement. ...


However...the factory workshop manuals at least as far back as 1969, say: 3/8" (9.5mm).

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: Stuart] #567708
10/15/14 6:19 am
10/15/14 6:19 am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 416
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OZ
I put the bike on the centerstand and remove the top shockie bolts, swing them out the way then lift the back wheel and put a stand under one of the rear axle nuts once the clutch center, swingarm pivot and rear axle are all in a line, which is the tight spot.
Next I turn the wheel to find the tightest point and then set the chain tension.

Once you've done it that way it's easy enough to measure the deflection on the bottom run once the bikes on the center stand and use that as a future reference instead of doing the whole procedure again next time.

davy

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: Old Cafe Racer] #567819
10/15/14 7:10 pm
10/15/14 7:10 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
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Well, I'm not sure how this morphed over to rear drive chains, but I changed the oil in my primary chain case today and used the level plug. I found that when I had added 310cc's of oil, it started dripping out the level plug hole. So the FSM is pretty close when they say to add 350cc's if you are not using the level plug. I had read in another thread on here that the oil would run out when only 150cc's were added. I'm thinking that maybe that person perhaps forgot to drain his case of the old oil and the level was down a bit? Stranger things have happened.

Now that I have made up a dipstick to check the oil level, I won't be using the level plug anymore. It will be easier, so I'll pay a little closer attention to the chain slack and the oil level than I had been.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567845
10/15/14 9:39 pm
10/15/14 9:39 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
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reverb Offline
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...hello Stuart, I tell ya that all modern mechanic manuals say 1/2 for the rear chain.
And in the real life those 4cms!! is too much.
Do not believe me? Put your chain that way then take the highway do a 300kms ride or more then you ll see.
The bike will finish with less response due to extremely loose chain damaging more the sprockets than with a 1/2" and if you have a chain guard with lot of clicks clacks noises. Sometimes expand so much (in the case of long chains like in a chopper, etc) that hit the chain guard on the primary rear case (pre unit) or in the cases (units)

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: reverb] #567871
10/16/14 3:27 am
10/16/14 3:27 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: reverb
all modern mechanic manuals say 1/2 for the rear chain.

It makes not a blind bit of difference what "modern mechanic manuals say". These are old bikes, there aren't any "modern mechanic manuals" that apply to them.

The chain slack necessary when the bike is on the centrestand is a function of the distance between the gearbox sprocket centre and the swinging arm centre and the no-load extension of the rear shock absorbers. As no-one's been 'round and radically-reengineered these old bikes, whatever any "modern mechanic manuals say" is irrelevant.

Originally Posted By: reverb
Put your chain that way then take the highway do a 300kms ride or more then you ll see.

Don't be patronising.

"In real life" I've owned at least one of these old Triumphs for 37 years; most of those years, I've owned more than one at the same time. I've covered tens, if not hundreds of thousands of miles on them, including rides thousands of miles longer than "300 kms" (less than 200 miles).

"In real life", I lived (and still live) in the country where the British chain-making company Renold manufactured the chains fitted to your bike when it was new. "In real life", I spoke with people at Renold whose job it was to know the technicalities of roller motorcycle final-drive chains; that's what I posted, not some half-understood twaddle from "modern mechanic manuals".

"In real life" I put air shocks. on two of my bikes something like thirty years ago. By reducing the pressure in air shocks., it's possible to do exactly what Triumph wrote in the manuals they wrote for the bikes they made - line up both sprocket centres with the swinging arm centre, then measure the chain slack. After that, without using the bikes, I put them on the centrestands and measured the chain slack again. That's why I know the measurements Triumph wrote in the manuals they wrote for the bikes they made are pretty much correct. "In real life", I know you've never done this, or you wouldn't have posted the nonsense that you posted.

Originally Posted By: reverb
Sometimes expand so much ... that hit the chain guard

Because you've never followed the instructions Triumph wrote in the manuals they wrote for the bikes they made, you wouldn't know that, in fact, those instructions don't take account of small differences in the relative positions of gearbox sprocket and swinging arm pivot centres. On one of my Triumphs with air shocks., if I just set the chain slack on the centrestand to 1-3/4", the chain does indeed clank on the chainguard. This is because that particular bike only needs 1-5/8"; I know this because I measured the chain slack with the sprockets centres and swinging arm pivot centre in a line.

Note the difference between the 1-3/4" from the manuals Triumph wrote for the bikes they made, the 1-5/8" measured on one Triumph "in real life" and the 1/2" from "modern mechanic manuals", that apply to modern bikes.

Btw, small differences in distances between gearbox sprocket centres and swinging arm pivot centres aren't peculiar to Triumphs or Britbikes; I've also found them on the Jap bikes I've owned where I've changed engines.

Originally Posted By: reverb
do a 300kms ride
The bike will finish with less response due to extremely loose chain

As we say in GB, "Cobblers!" (it's cockney rhyming slang, that you can now look up on the internet). If your bike's chain is so loose that "response" is "less" after less than 200 miles, your bike has a problem - probably misaligned sprockets. This opinion is based not just on 37 years of owning old Triumphs but even longer and owning all sorts of bikes.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: TR6Ray] #567872
10/16/14 3:43 am
10/16/14 3:43 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,239
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Ray,

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
I'm not sure how this morphed over to rear drive chains,

The thread title is just "Shop manual anomaly" so I guess people feel free to post about anything they consider an "anomaly". Hopefully we can help some who've misunderstood the significance of what they've read to avoid damaging what're probably perfectly good old Triumphs. wink

Regards,

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567925
10/16/14 12:10 pm
10/16/14 12:10 pm
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...well, I have a rigid frame, and most here have a rigid frame in their motorcycles, normally with 19 or 16 HD rims.
Mine have a 520 Renold and a 16 with bigger sprocket.
I still never see in "real life" what you say.
Also I do not have a car, these very old Motorcycles are my rides.
I do not saying that you are wrong, I m saying that I used that distance and is too much. May be we are measuring from different tangent...

Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567974
10/16/14 5:24 pm
10/16/14 5:24 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,587
Illinois, USA
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reverb,

You could have saved some people a lot of typing if you had mentioned up front that you were talking about a rear drive chain on a hardtail frame. Everybody trying to set you straight was talking about a bike with a pivoting swing arm.

[Linked Image]


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Shop manual anomaly [Re: desco] #567983
10/16/14 6:07 pm
10/16/14 6:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,178
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...if that is the case: apologies.


Moderated by  John Healy 


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