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dual post coil recommends #566261
10/05/14 6:07 am
10/05/14 6:07 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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az-idea  Offline OP
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palo alto,ca.
…I'm on my 3rd Drag Specialty …Maybe 5000Mi each and they Crap out..
Had a Revtech years ago that was Hardy.[.BTW I'm EI Pazon]…But it Died.. and I couldn't find another Revtech…Whats up..?..The only alternative seems to be Dynatec…at twice the cost..?..
Any recommends out there…?…Had two Accel Die Too…?..Some brands gotta give More than 5 Grand Mi…?…at reasonable cost..?…iv'e researched and the field seems limited to chinese…"get you round the block for fast food"..and thats all..?..

kinda pissed…s'cuse the late nite post….any recommends..?

and thanks… dan z….

65 T120 r

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Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566267
10/05/14 7:38 am
10/05/14 7:38 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,926
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Online content
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Asheville, NC
I'm on my second green Dyna at this point. First one lasted over 10 years and would probably still be going, but I think I overheated it by running large plug gaps.
Where do you mount your coil? Make sure it gets some airflow to it.
Mike

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: Mike Baker] #566268
10/05/14 7:59 am
10/05/14 7:59 am
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 416
OZ
O
Old Cafe Racer Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 416
OZ
I run a Tri-spark dual lead coil.

http://www.trispark.com.au/home/products/

davy

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566272
10/05/14 8:50 am
10/05/14 8:50 am
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 28
Saratoga Springs, NY
U
UGOTBIT Offline
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U
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 28
Saratoga Springs, NY
I'm using the Emgo with my Pazon. Can't speak on durability, mine has only seen about 10mins of run time so far, but it seems like a common choice with the Pazon.

PN is 24-72451

Last edited by UGOTBIT; 10/05/14 8:50 am.

1967 TR6 = 650 ways to waste money
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566273
10/05/14 8:59 am
10/05/14 8:59 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,644
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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Mississauga, Ontario.
I'have been using old Jap double coil for the last 8 years - $20 from a wrecker for 2 of them.
Works with my old Boyer analog ignition and I don't see any signs of it wearing out smile.

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566275
10/05/14 9:33 am
10/05/14 9:33 am
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 174
South Africa.
E
Elijah Offline
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Elijah  Offline
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E
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 174
South Africa.
The new Triumph Bonnevilles use a dual post coil.
newbonneville.com has German made replacements .....

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566277
10/05/14 9:47 am
10/05/14 9:47 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
Unless you own a Micro-Power Boyer Electronic Ignition do not use those Nology coils for the new Bonneville. These unit deliver a very high current signal for a very short duration, not the low current long duration used with dwell point systems.

These are not Dwell based ignition coils and at 0.6 ohms they will fry the switching diode in your control box.

The MKIII, MKIV and Micro-Digial units must be used with a coil designed expressly for coils using Dwell technology. That means you want a coil that was designed to be used in an ignition system that uses points.


Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566306
10/05/14 1:56 pm
10/05/14 1:56 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,858
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,858
Scotland
Hi Dan,

Originally Posted By: az-idea
3rd Drag Specialty …Maybe 5000Mi each and they Crap out..
Revtech
it Died..
Dynatec…at twice the cost..
two Accel Die Too…
BTW I'm EI Pazon

Errr ... so why not the Pazon "dual post coil"? confused

Hth.

Regards,

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566308
10/05/14 2:00 pm
10/05/14 2:00 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
Oh Stuart, you are so British... That would fly in the face of our total independence from reality.


Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566317
10/05/14 4:01 pm
10/05/14 4:01 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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az-idea  Offline OP
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Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
…I have a Nology 0.06 ohm on one shelf..tho I don't have the Digi-box it's intended for…also found an old Emgo on the discards shelf…
…in most cases,but not all, Iv'e used the NGK resistor caps…tho it seems not to make a difference..
The old Revtech gave maybe 40K mi…But otherwise I'm feeling lucky if I get 10K These days..
…What I've read indicates 3ohm coils for point systems..and 5ohm for analog EI systems…This last Drag Specialty item was a
4ohm coil an it gave 5K service…[ what a Drag]..I believe the Pazon looks like the Emgo which I never liked..so never got one..
My coil[s] mounted high on the front down tube where there's plenty of air..so Thats not the issue…
…I should mention,for the analysts,that the first symptom of Failure is,usually, when the Coil gets distinctly hot…
and then it proceeds to cause misfires at Hi RPM…I suspect wiring connectors of the Bullet or spade store bought type might
play a role..as it seems there's Always one connection somewhere that Looks/ Feels Fine…but Isn't..Tho as I mentioned..the Revtech endured this common occurrence…So maybe not the culprit…where, more possibly ,Coil Quality Is…
…also,btw, had several Sparx 3 phase Regs fail too..and a switch to the Podtronic has shown,so far, it's a Hardier one.
…I put a good amount of miles on this Bike every year,average 15K, for near 15 years…Done numerous Engine rebuilds.Top & Bottom…Most needed..some for Fun and Experiment…and I've Got the Knowledge,at least…that Things Fail..and Then We Fix Em…Right..?…But this Coil issue is rather Exasperating…
…Appreciate the Responses
Dan Z
65-650 T120R
Bitsa

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566322
10/05/14 4:56 pm
10/05/14 4:56 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
What I've read indicates 3ohm coils for point systems..and 5ohm for analog EI systems…


Not the way I would put it... the Boyer analog is rated for a max. continuos current draw of 5 amps if kept in a constant flow of air.

The lowest practical coil resistance is 3 ohms and the max approx. 5 to 6 ohms, with 4 ohms being a good ohm rating to strive for when using a Boyer/Pazon analog unit.

There is no reason to use resistor plug caps when using any one of the Boyer/Pazon analog systems.


Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566393
10/06/14 12:41 am
10/06/14 12:41 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
…Pulling back from the details for a moment…
a Solid recommendation for a robust Dual post Coil is what I'd like to See..
... suitable to My current EI ignition box.. a... Pazon analog "sure Fire"..
Has anybody tried the Dynatec DC8-1..?…or, perhaps the [less $$] Voodoo Dual for EI Ig….?
…Do the Germans Make a Dual in the 3 to 5 Ohms range..For EI..?..
I'm about to search that Now..

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: John Healy] #566397
10/06/14 2:42 am
10/06/14 2:42 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,858
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,858
Scotland
Hi John,

Originally Posted By: John Healy
you are so British

SSSHHH!!! Now I'm where I am, I'm Scottish - I've always had the name, just working on the accent ...

Regards, grin

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566416
10/06/14 7:14 am
10/06/14 7:14 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,632
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Hillbilly bike  Online Content
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Posts: 3,632
Running from demons in WNY
You can use a 3 ohm coil with a 1 ohm automotive points ballast resistor if 4 ohms is what you want....
My preference is arguable but using the lowest permissible ohm coil may allow a larger spark plug gap. The larger gap fires a leaner fuel mixture so the off idle and part throttle response might be sharper....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566421
10/06/14 8:51 am
10/06/14 8:51 am
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 28
Saratoga Springs, NY
U
UGOTBIT Offline
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UGOTBIT  Offline
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U
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 28
Saratoga Springs, NY
The Emgo is highly recommended by Tony at Classic Cyles. I know he has done a bunch of them. It looks exactly like the Pazon unit only way cheaper.


1967 TR6 = 650 ways to waste money
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: UGOTBIT] #566423
10/06/14 9:49 am
10/06/14 9:49 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,632
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted By: UGOTBIT
The Emgo is highly recommended by Tony at Classic Cyles. I know he has done a bunch of them. It looks exactly like the Pazon unit only way cheaper.


Yes, they are the same as many dual lead coils from 70-80's Japanese 4 cylinder bikes.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566449
10/06/14 12:42 pm
10/06/14 12:42 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
I played moderator for a minute... The exchange was getting a bit less than clever. If one is going to tell someone to go to h*ll at least frame in such a manner that he looks forward to the trip...


Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566482
10/06/14 3:56 pm
10/06/14 3:56 pm
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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palo alto,ca.
… perhaps now getting somewhere, Thanks Hillbilly Bike…
I've been running .040 Plug Gaps…on a 4 ohm coil with the 5ohm resistor caps…
Mr.Heally says the resistor caps aren't necessary with a Pazon ..{contrary to what my Radio listening neighbors say !!]
and Hillbilly points up that the lower/lowest ohm coil is appropriate for the larger plug gap..I think this implies the larger gap imposes too much load on the 4ohm…and thus the excess heat i've noticed..and the Hi rpm misfires..
I've removed the resistor caps
and I'll close the gaps,for now…and perhaps this misunderstood coil
will respond positively ' without breaking up at Hi rpm '…will see…

'Otherwise'.. Disposed of..

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566497
10/06/14 5:02 pm
10/06/14 5:02 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,632
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
A Pazon designed for using a 3-5 ohm coil won't reliably fire a plug gap larger than about .026 at 7000 rpm from my experience. But it was on my race bike with 10.5 compression.
I changed to a Smart Fire Pazon with a .6 ohm coil that will reliably fire a .032 plug gap at 7500 rpm...However I found no performance advantage with gaps larger than .030. On the race bike I use NGK G plugs which are a fine wire electrode supposedly requiring less voltage to fire.
I experimented with .035 plug gaps many years ago on a Triumph 650 by using Chevy car coils and ballast resistors with 3.0 total ohms at each coil with the stock points. I was able to run a leaner part throttle mixture that sharpened low speed response. I rode the bike for about 15000 miles over 5 years with no decrease in points life or other issues.
Generally speaking,larger gaps are needed to fire lean fuel mixtures....And keep in mind the engine sees a large spark plug gap like an advance in timing..Maybe your ignition break up is over advanced timing and or detonation..
I suggest you close down the gaps to .028 and see if it makes any performance difference.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566498
10/06/14 5:11 pm
10/06/14 5:11 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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Posts: 10,129
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
I've been running .040 Plug Gaps…on a 4 ohm coil with the 5ohm resistor caps…


And you wonder why your coils heat up and die. The projected life of these coils is based upon using .024" plug gaps.

Quote:
Mr.Heally says the resistor caps aren't necessary with a Pazon ..{contrary to what my Radio listening neighbors say !!]


The analog electronic ignitions are not effected by the RF while the units that use a computer chip are. Your neighbors are a different kettle of fish.

Originally Posted By: hillbilly
The larger gap fires a leaner fuel mixture


A leaner mixture allows the spark ionization to propagate easier. The richer the mixture the harder it for the spark to ionize the gas mixture. But the wider the gap the greater the chance the spark will find an easier path to ground and the bike will miss fire at best or send high voltage back through the control box and kill it. There is no free lunch... Oh and it is the Boyer, Pazon, Tri-Sparks, or what have you, fault.

AZ is in southern california where the ambient temperature can effect an EI control box, coil, etc. if they are not kept cool. Over loading the coil by opening up the plug gap, pushing the EI box to its upper current limit by using as low a resistance coil as possible, not mounting the coil on a heat sink to dissipate all the extra heat you are generating leaves little in the way of a safety factor for when you get stuck in traffic on a 110° day on a freshly paved highway. Sure you can do it, but you will be paying a price. And we will be hearing that your coil only lasted 5,000 miles...


Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: John Healy] #566509
10/06/14 6:35 pm
10/06/14 6:35 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,632
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Quote:

A leaner mixture allows the spark ionization to propagate easier. The richer the mixture the harder it for the spark to ionize the gas mixture.


I will agree to disagree...During the 70-80's auto engine required large plug gaps, .060, to fire the very lean fuel mixtures (16-1) need to reduce emissions with the crude engine management systems used then. Then came the sophisticated computer engine management and three way catalytic convertor which needed a richer stoichiometric fuel air mixture (14.7). And smaller plug gaps to fire the less lean mixture.
If you have an engine that has a slight lean stumble when the throttle is slowly opened, a wider plug gap,if the ignition is up to it,will lessen or eliminate the stumble. And as I said the increased gap "advances" the timing which also helps to light a lean mixture.
What works on auto engines works on bike engines...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566547
10/06/14 11:09 pm
10/06/14 11:09 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,114
Noblesville, IN
Jack Adams Offline
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Noblesville, IN
Hillbilly, A larger gap acts like "advancing" the timing? I could see "retarding",maybe I'm just getting senile,so please explain.

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566555
10/07/14 12:47 am
10/07/14 12:47 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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palo alto,ca.
…changing the gap to .028 did not resolve the coil cutout at 5k rpm…the coil is cooler..but it..
[ or, …?.. a coil on the Trigger plate..? ]…is still cutting up..
… i'm going to re-focus.. on the trigger plate..esp. the coil[s].. tomorrow … It's a Known,that I seem to have misplaced, that any connective compromise there..of coil to plate
or, other..?..can cause a similar cut out problem…So, well,
the bike, else wise, including an answer to the CDI being now questionable..perform quite well..right up to the 5k that is……
…It's always interesting…the Bike, and here
…instructive…here…thought .028 was the simple,brilliant answer…and,well
I'm really
…hoping I can say ' problem resolved '
in a day or two…???…..keeping at It...
AZ
Well in S.S.F.
where it's been 90deg's all summer

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566673
10/08/14 12:59 am
10/08/14 12:59 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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az-idea  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.

swapped in 3 different timing plates from the shelf today
and the same cutout occurs with each at the same rpm
so probability is problem's not there..an must be
with the main coil as suspected..it's
evident ,that the .040 plug gap and my failing to observe the recommended gap per 4ohm coil
has cost me coils and left Me culpable..all the while…gives Me a Headache in the Ego..Chills
Hard Lesson to absorb..Tho whats good is I did replace a lot of wiring in the process !?
Whats left to do is clear..New coil.
whats left to see is if It cures the cutout and also outlasts my last coils.. if so
it would appear to be empiric an proof,then,that Iv'e been the Monkeys Uncle not to get It..till Now, That certain
big gap gains,without the properly matched coils, are only short term
costly..unreliable..and just not Right !?..
I think it was Hillbilly who put a light on the Plug gap issue
So,Thank you Hillbilly..and All..
Dan Z..AZ…and now an Uncle, Too..!

Re: dual post coil recommends [Re: az-idea] #566683
10/08/14 6:39 am
10/08/14 6:39 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
A
az-idea Offline OP
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az-idea  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
…Brief retrospective comment..
it seems that I based my confidence in coils,generally, on the Revtech coils tolerance…for .040 gaps…?..which coil gave 40k service..!!..??..with .040 plug gaps...
what emerges,in retrospect, is that the rev tech I had was a very very Hardy coil…which sustained the abuse…leaving me uninformed of my mistake….and prone,therefore, to critique all subsequent 4 ohm coils ..for failure…!!.??..!!…evidently wrong conclusion...// well….?…//...Im certainly not a rep…But I'd like to have one of those Older Revtechs again, set up proper…!!

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