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#551778 - 07/08/14 1:01 am Re: A65 caf *** [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 99
Juan Offline
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Puerto Rico USA

Awesome looking bike,a job well done Lilo.
Juan


Juan
1978 T140V Boneville
1969 T120R Boneville
1967 TR6R Tiger
2014 Triumph Thruxton
#551833 - 07/08/14 9:24 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 710
Blown Income Online content
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Posts: 710
Edgewater, Md
Looks great!!! Thats going to be a fun ride on the back roads.


1955 BSA Bantam D1 Plunger
1956 BSA A10RR Street and LSR Bike
1961 BSA C15S
1966 BSA spitfire
1969 Triumph T100C
1970 Triumph TR6R
1972 BSA Lightning LSR Bike
1974 Triumph T150V
#551836 - 07/08/14 9:49 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Oct 2005
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Mattsta Offline
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Posts: 568
Surrey UK
Rorty McSnorty!!!!

That is an animal!!!!

Who makes those control levers. They look very nicely made


1952 Triumph T100 in a BSA A7 Frame
#551841 - 07/08/14 10:54 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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Adam M. Online content
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Mississauga, Ontario.
Lilo, what about a movie to see it in action ?
Looks awesome.

#551900 - 07/08/14 4:34 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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J. Charles Smith Offline
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Westminster, MD, USA
A fabulous machine beautifully executed. Very clean lines with nothing overdone or out of place. Great job.

#551990 - 07/09/14 5:54 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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jim hodges Offline
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manchester England
Looks great,,
Does it go as well as it should.
Jim hodges

#552077 - 07/09/14 5:16 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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lilo  Offline
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england
I'll show you at the Manx!!!!

#552079 - 07/09/14 5:24 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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england
Does anyone have any experience of the 90 degree Pazon system.
It seems to have a wasted spark which means a lot of kickback with the following piston starting the compression stroke as the 1st one is about to fire.
Ive emailed the question to Pazon but they have not replied.

#552408 - 07/11/14 7:01 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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NickL Online content
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Aus
When using a wasted spark system on one of my earlier 76 deg experiments, i had this issue.
With us it was probably the length of the inlet track as fuel mixture would ignite in there when the wasted spark fired. I couldn't cure it and made my own ignition system to suit and never used a wasted spark system after that on any of my offset engines. I can only put it down to that as other people seem to be able to use wasted systems with no problem. I had a dcoe 40 + a 4 inch inlet manifold and quite hairy cam 90-60 60-90 (the cam would not be helping either)The mixture must have had enough volatility to ignite.

Last edited by NickL; 07/11/14 7:43 pm.


#552718 - 07/13/14 4:22 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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england
Thanks for that info.
Im also using long inlet tracks but this is kickback and not spitting out the carb.
Ive emailed Pazon twice. Don't want to have to phone New Zealand in the middle of the night.
How did you make your own system?

Last edited by lilo; 07/14/14 3:33 pm.
#552752 - 07/13/14 7:22 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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NickL Online content
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Aus
I used 2 Hall Effect sensors made by Honeywell they are rated to 125 deg C mounted on a plate similar to the ignition plate you have with one sensor adjustable by about 10deg.and fabricated a rotor with a slot.
That is the starting point.
Then the electronics starts....... I ended up with a PIC single chip micro for the timing map as it made it simple to change rather than a PLL.



#552758 - 07/13/14 8:18 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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NickL Online content
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Aus
The normal reason for it kicking back is that the timing is too far advanced.
What static timing are you using?
What is the compression ratio?
What sort of cam timing figures are you using?

All these will affect the starting.



#552818 - 07/14/14 6:32 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
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Posts: 4,533
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Looks the DB's Lilo!! A very nice bike indeed


beerchug
#552901 - 07/14/14 3:48 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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england
I'm running the bike with the standard 9mm before tdc.
We've retarded the timing bit by bit until the bike won't start but the problem still exists.
Its as if the following piston is just starting to rise when the wasted spark hits and if the primary piston doesn't fire properly the following one bounces back.
Compression is 9:1
Carbs, as you can see maybe not the most sensible choice.
Cam timing, Im not sure. A special from Rainer.



#552902 - 07/14/14 3:49 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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england
I take back everything I have said about Pazon.
Andy has just mailed me with the most comprehensive list of solutions I have ever received from a query.

#553003 - 07/15/14 8:50 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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gREgg-K Offline
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Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted By: lilo
I take back everything I have said about Pazon.
Andy has just mailed me with the most comprehensive list of solutions I have ever received from a query.

Lilo, could you please share the solutions that Andy sent you?

Thanks,
.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#553053 - 07/15/14 3:15 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
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lilo Offline
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england

Hi Lilo,

Thanks for contacting us.

The kick back you describe is very rare at least with our ignitions.
The Smart Fire uses a fully retarded mechanical reference point (on the rotor) at slow speeds.

Our systems for twins/v-twins/triples are all wasted spark, as are most of the electronic ignition systems currently available for classic British bikes.
We have supplied many systems over the years, and wasted spark works fine on a properly tuned/timed engine.
Fuel generally only ignites under compression, unless there are problems with ignition timing and/or carburetion.
However, wasted spark ignition should be avoided on a supercharged engine, where problems could occur.
Our systems have been fitted to 45, 50, 72, 90 and 180 crank twins.

Harley used wasted spark (with a single set of points) for decades, without a problem.
With later models there has been a need to cater for fuel injection, lower emissions, improvements in economy and power, etc.
So you will find that most modern bikes and cars have switched to engine management systems.
These systems offer greater efficiency and non-wasted spark (single fire) ignition.
This certainly makes sense, although it means more complexity, i.e. increased circuitry and extra ignition coil(s).
Independent firing is something we have considered, and may offer at some point for those that want/prefer this method of firing.

For most classic bikes the wasted spark system is the simplest, and in our experience works fine

Normally kick back would be due to incorrect timing, wiring fault, battery, connections, switch, fuse, grounding or mechanical problem.
Can you see the advance/retard working with a strobe, i.e. the alternator rotor mark moving as rpm increases?
Retarding the timing may help, but shouldn't be necessary if the ignition was timed/strobed correctly.

What other work was done to the bike before (or after) fitting the new ignition?
Does the bike run normally (once started)?

Some problem areas to check include:

Bad electrical connection, switch or fuse contact
Poor grounding
Faulty battery
Faulty/high resistance plug cap
Air leak
Carb fault
Faulty ignition trigger
Faulty ignition coil
Faulty ignition module

If you have a test meter you can check the plug caps and ignition coil for correct resistance readings.
The plug caps normally read about 5k (5000) ohms from end to end.
The dual ignition coil primary resistance is 0.6 ohms across plus/minus terminals, and about 8k ohms across the two ht outlets.

Its worth checking that the timing is still correct, in case the rotor has slipped (unlikely, but possible).
You could also try running a temporary wire directly from the battery to the ignition module, bypassing the wiring harness, switch etc.
See if the kick-back persists.

Its also possible for a weak mixture to cause or aggravate a kick-back problem.
This could be due to a carb fault/setting, air leak, valve problem, etc.

Hope this helps.

If this cannot be resolved, our ignition parts can be returned to us for testing.
We can check for correct advance/retard operation etc. on our rig.

Best regards,
Andy Perkins
PAZON IGNITIONS LTD.
Keeping Classic Bikes on the Road
www.pazon.com

PAZON IGNITIONS LTD.
274 Hot Springs Road
RD 2
KATIKATI 3178
Bay of Plenty
New Zealand

Tel: 0064 75495878
Fax: 0064 75495879
Email: ignition@pazon.com

#553228 - 07/16/14 4:16 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 195
wbabojo Offline
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Ipswich England
Hi lilo, Fitted a C5 electronic Kit from Wisconsin. 38 duty paid ouch! It is a single fire set up, and works a treat. I too have a set of Rainer's cylinders, but use an SRM 90 Deg. Spitfire profile cam supplied new by them. I have yet to ride it yet, but it sounds a brahma. Standard siamese pipes but a single carb head for simplicity. I just fitted a Smiths electronic speedo, but have yet to calibrate it/finish wiring. Those GP's look great, I use a 30mm Mikuni. It has proven much easier to set up. You need WOT to appreciate those GP's I think. My bike can't hold a candle up to yours when it comes to good looks though. You've done a fantastic job of utilising the standard with the modern, good job mate.

Last edited by wbabojo; 07/16/14 4:17 pm.

Gavin
You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
#553295 - 07/17/14 5:07 am Re: A65 caf [Re: wbabojo]  
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Julian Offline
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Julian  Offline
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Belgium
Looks fantastic!
Absolutely love it!!
Soooooo glad you haven't succumbed to fitting modern Mk2 Amals!
Great!

Julian


Royal Enfield Works Trials
BSA Super Rocket Scrambler
BSA Gold Star Scrambler
Triumph Bonneville 1966
Laverda 750SF
Laverda "1000"SF
BSA Rocket 3
Norton Commando 850
Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport
Moto Guzzi Le Mans 1
Ducati MHR 1980
#553359 - 07/17/14 3:36 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 123
lilo Offline
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lilo  Offline
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england
Don's speak too soon!!!!

#553453 - 07/18/14 2:24 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 133
Julian Offline
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Julian  Offline
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Posts: 133
Belgium
I think, Dump the wasted spark. Can't imagine it will be a clever thing going on in a 270/450 firing pattern.
Thought about it for my 90 degree Laverda 750/1000 project and decided I didn't like the idea. I have had bikes running extremely well on both TTs and GPs to find no reason that yours would not work. And they look so damn cool that it would be worth some sweat to get them right. And what is that old saying? 90% of carburetor problems are down to the ignition. ;o)

Good luck mate and again great looking bike!

Julian


Royal Enfield Works Trials
BSA Super Rocket Scrambler
BSA Gold Star Scrambler
Triumph Bonneville 1966
Laverda 750SF
Laverda "1000"SF
BSA Rocket 3
Norton Commando 850
Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport
Moto Guzzi Le Mans 1
Ducati MHR 1980
#557547 - 08/09/14 12:55 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 123
lilo Offline
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lilo  Offline
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england
Thanks Julian and after loads of messing about I have to agree that the wasted spark is causing a lot of starting problems and worst of all the mother of all kickbacks.

We've got the carbs well sorted ;as my teenage daughters would say; The bike ticks over nicely and the pickup is crisp and sharp.
It sounds fantastic through the shorty mega.

Do you know who can make a good individual ignition system for a 90 degree without using the cheaper wasted spark design?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

#557558 - 08/09/14 2:21 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,071
gREgg-K Offline
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gREgg-K  Offline

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Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted By: lilo
Thanks Julian and after loads of messing about I have to agree that the wasted spark is causing a lot of starting problems and worst of all the mother of all kickbacks.

We've got the carbs well sorted ;as my teenage daughters would say; The bike ticks over nicely and the pickup is crisp and sharp.
It sounds fantastic through the shorty mega.

Do you know who can make a good individual ignition system for a 90 degree without using the cheaper wasted spark design?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


A post further up this page from wbabojo says that he is successfully using an ignition system from 'C5', which is the same as 'PowerArc'.

They say their system can be run single fire on a 270 degree engine, but for the life of me I can't see how that is possible then it has only a single TDC sensor, and a second one that divides crank rotation into 4 degree intervals. Problem is that the TDC marker can correspond correctly only with one cylinder .. it will be out 135 degrees on the other ... and there is no way for the ignition to know which is which.

I've been interested in C5 and PowerArc for my own 270 degree Commando for some time, but have never been given the courtesy of an explanation of how it works ... all I get is "it's a secret, just believe us".

wbabojo, can you shed any light on this, and can you confirm that the C5 truly runs single fire?

... Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
#557589 - 08/09/14 5:48 pm Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 195
wbabojo Offline
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wbabojo  Offline
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Posts: 195
Ipswich England
Hi,
The coil that C5 supplied for my fitment, was a "Single Fire" coil, as they describe it. It is their mandatory fitment, for it charges in quick time and with enough power to send three pulses (Multispark)in quick succession every BTDC. From this, I can only guess it's a single fire system. I've only ridden it three times, today last time, to the MOT test. Reprogrammed the Smiths electronic speedo as well today (Correctly this time lol), and that too is a revelation. I'll PM you now Lilo, C5 are not a sponsor here FAIK.

Kind Regards

Last edited by wbabojo; 08/10/14 12:45 am.

Gavin
You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
#557636 - 08/10/14 12:48 am Re: A65 caf [Re: lilo]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 195
wbabojo Offline
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wbabojo  Offline
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Ipswich England
Well I would, but your box is full.

Kind Regards


Gavin
You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
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