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Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557288
08/07/14 7:58 pm
08/07/14 7:58 pm
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Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
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For heavens sake TT, Triumph made a 1977 Bonneville Silver Jubilee and marked right on the motorcycle for every one who was looking to buy one: 1 of 1,000. Then then set-out to make over 2,000. They never apologized, had any law suits from customers claiming they were swindled or did they look back. They then made a Limited Edition T140D and it was anything but limited.

As the auctioneer I worked with for years states at the beginning of his auctions: "If the bike on the stand is a 1970 Bonneville and the brochure states that it is a 1965 TR6, you are buying a 1970 Bonneville, not the one in the brochure." How do you think your big auction house in the UK gets away with selling bikes with altered motor numbers. At auction it is up to the buyer to do his own due diligence - Auctions are legally, and protected by law, as is, where is.


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Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557306
08/07/14 9:23 pm
08/07/14 9:23 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
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Originally Posted By: TT Rider
The seller in this case is lying about the bike - he's passing it off as rarer than it is.

The seller's action is reprehensible. But, not to lose perspective, at this very moment the (in)action of some high level heath official in east Africa is responsible for nearly 1000 deaths so far due to failure to contain Ebola, and militants are still free despite having killed nearly 300 on a Malaysian airliner.

Getting righteously indignant about some injustice in the world certainly has its place. But, without that indignation leading to some proposed action that realistically solves the problem it becomes just ranting and raving. As such, it competes with ranting and raving about Ebola and Ukrainian mass murderers for the sympathy of the reader, who can't do anything about those either. Personally, I'm more sympathetic with the plight of Ebola victims than with that of some guy who has enough extra money in his pocket to buy a 50-year old motorcycle and who bases his purchasing decision on whether the seller says "1 of 100" instead of "1 of 400."

I'm not saying I think it's OK for the seller to lie, but buying a Triumph TT is a transaction to purchase a totally unnecessary item using discretionary money, and by someone who by this point in his life should know what he's doing when buying a used vehicle. If he relies only on what the seller says, or on numbers he finds on the internet, I really can't work up too much sympathy for his plight. Unfortunately, I have a finite sympathy budget, and a lot of it already is allocated on injustices in the world that severely impact people who are not in a position to squander $20, let alone $20,000, on a discretionary purchase.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557312
08/07/14 9:33 pm
08/07/14 9:33 pm
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Caveat emptor surely applies at some stage eh


Regards

Grant
Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557315
08/07/14 9:42 pm
08/07/14 9:42 pm
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in my house
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This whole VIN number thing sounds like everybody worrying about counterfeit T120RT's.

The AMA will not even give the numbers to TOMCC (Triumph Owners Club).


K

Last edited by KADUTZ; 08/07/14 9:43 pm.

1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: Magnetoman] #557331
08/07/14 11:20 pm
08/07/14 11:20 pm
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Near London, England
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Originally Posted By: Magnetoman

I'm not saying I think it's OK for the seller to lie, but buying a Triumph TT is a transaction to purchase a totally unnecessary item using discretionary money, and by someone who by this point in his life should know what he's doing when buying a used vehicle. If he relies only on what the seller says, or on numbers he finds on the internet, I really can't work up too much sympathy for his plight. Unfortunately, I have a finite sympathy budget, and a lot of it already is allocated on injustices in the world that severely impact people who are not in a position to squander $20, let alone $20,000, on a discretionary purchase.


+1 MMan! I'm not quite sure why we (including you, me, John Healy and anybody else) are wasting time on this ridiculous argument. Sure, I think it's wrong to make claims about something you're selling that aren't true. Others feel differently. But putting it into perspective, as you point out, it's not really that important. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as righteously indignant. I'm not. Well, indignant, no. Righteous? Probably not neither, bro.

When I bought my TT I was aware that the seller was making false claims about it but I did my research and there was nothing I was unaware of (excluding the fact the front wheel was, literally hanging on by a thread, and probably would have fallen off had I attempted a wheelie down the Kings Road on it, as planned). I thought it was worth buying (albeit at a discounted price) regardless. I chose to buy it, I'm happy with it, I made the right choice. I hope your comments about looking for sympathy for the devil weren't directed at me as that's the last thing on my mind... but I'm not going to get all hot under the collar about it.

As I've said elsewhere, I am interested in the "American Triumphs", I'd like to find out more about them and perhaps provide some kind of web page with information and assorted trivia and titillation. Perhaps tie it in with a piece on the ice cap melting to make it a bit more kick-ass. That's the main drive behind my research into the production figures. (Six immaculately restored TTs, one from each year, on a melting iceberg draped with scantily clad models in an "Iron Horsey" stylee - now there's an idea!)

If you are providing information on an allegedly rare motorcycle, one of the first things people will want to know is how many of them exist. That is the principal purpose behind the effort I'm putting into this consumer research project. If some confirmed figures assist in keeping prices for TTs in the UK realistic, then so much the better. If they keep on going up exponentially then I'll be HALOing in on a Harley to recapture a few and bring our boys back home!

TT

Last edited by TT Rider; 08/08/14 6:06 am. Reason: Clarity



Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: OriginalScott] #557333
08/07/14 11:39 pm
08/07/14 11:39 pm
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Originally Posted By: OriginalScott
How about we shift this thread to something constructive concerning the numbers and making a better argument. TT, one aspect of research based conclusions is the ability for someone else to use your method to come to the same conclusion. With this in mind, can you explain your process, sources used, and where to find them? I will admit to being completely clueless as to what the Woolridge notes are. This is one way to legitimize your argument without publishing numbers online.


Scott, sure.

The Triumph factory records for the TT years from 1963 - 1967 are held in black notebooks, slightly larger than A4 size. They have hard, black covers with spines bound in dark red/crimson and corners trimmed likewise. On the front of each book, stamped in gold, are the words "FRAME ENGINE NUMBERS DU00001 - DU10000". Thus each book contains 10,000 frame/engine numbers (numbers above illustrative and not TT related). The records I referenced contained information only about the 650s, the 'B' models.

There are 2 record books for every frame/engine number range: the build record and the despatch record. The build record contains details of when the motorcycle was assembled; the despatch record of when it was despatched. Each book contains a number of headed columns. The first 2 columns in each are the "Frame" and "Engine" ones, containing the respective numbers (which are always the same in the records I've viewed). They look like they have been stamped by an automated machine and ascend numerically. There are no gaps in the frame/engine number sequence. The 1965 model year is held in 2 of each of the record books.

Each row in the build record is spread over one side of a page; each row of the despatch record over two sides. The despatch record thus contains twice as many pages as the build record.

Only the frame and engine numbers are printed in each record. All other entries are added by hand. The hand writing suggests that entries were completed consistently by the same one or two people over the course of a year. I suspect this would have been the job of a foreman on the assembly line or manager overseeing despatch, with a deputy standing in when they were not at work. The hand writing in all cases is clear, and it's only very infrequently that an entry might be a little ambiguous.

The information recorded in the build record, in addition to frame/engine numbers, is: the order number e.g. "8014" and the entity who placed the order (in the "Order No." column under the actual order number) e.g. "Tri Corp"; the assembly date (UK style, e.g. "10-8-66" for "10 August 1966"); and the model, in the last column on each page, which has no heading e.g. "T120C ET"

The additional information in the despatch record is: "Despatched" e.g. "20-9-64"; "Supplied To" e.g. "Johnsons Motors USA". The model tends to be written in the space before the stamped number in the "Engine" column.

There are additional columns in each record that are frequently not filled e.g. "Rear wheel", "Invoice number" (in the despatch record).

The way that the data is laid out, in ascending numerical order, makes it very simple to autofill a combined frame/engine number column in a spreadsheet, then go through the build or despatch record looking for TTs. These are usually in batches of 100 - 500 - though sometimes you get the odd one or two included among a batch of T120Rs or plain T120Cs, for example. A columnm adjacent to the frame/engine number one ("Model") is then populated with the model name taken from the last column in the build record, or the space before the engine number in the despatch record.

For the 1965 count I used the build record, cross referencing the despatch record, to obtain the model names. I restricted entries to those for "T120C", "T120C ET", "T120C TT" and "T120TT". Build and despatch records are very consistent - with the odd exception - such as the frame/engine number of the last TT despatched in 1967 being one higher than the corresponding entry in the build record. These mismatches are very infrequent, but for greater precision I will look into using the despatch record as the principal source for my data in successive counts (as someone pointed out, these figures represent the items actually sent out). Given time, it would be best to perform separate counts the totals in the build and despatch records separately.

The "T120C TT" identified bikes constituted just 20 despatched at the end of April '65, with a final batch recorded as "T120TT" (in both build and despatch record, despatched at the start of May '65.) From then on, all TTs were recorded this way: as "T120TT" (or with a space, "T120 TT", though usually not).

The April 1965 "T120C TT" entries were the first time the "TT" abbreviation was used consistently. Prior to that there was a handful of occurrences in February 1965 when bikes recorded as "T120ET" in the build record were recorded as "T120TT", "T120C TT" or "T120ET TT". I'm unsure of the significance of these - I'd need to re-check. It could be someone new filling in the book or typos, or perhaps something else. Verification required.

Once I had entered all the model numbers, I deleted the blank rows and counted the number of "T120C"s (241) representing the rarer street scrambler and the "T120C ET", "T120C TT", "T120ET TT" and "T120 TT" entries representing the TT Specials (528 - recount shows this to be correct, not the approx. 565 originally thought). There were just 191 recorded with "TT" in the model name.

Harry's books are slightly smaller notebooks than the build and despatch records, just lined paper with no typewritten headings or entries, no embossed gold lettering or crimson trimmings. They contain lists of engine numbers and the dates on which they were built, with additional notes. Harry Woolridge personally recorded all the data. Harry clearly liked to keep an accurate record of things and didn't entrust the job to others - he liked lists and he liked them to be correct (which probably says quite a lot for the veracity of his book, "The Triumph Trophy Bible".)

I assume he took holidays, filling in the book after his return to work. Perhaps there were also separate logs of engines built which were used for the collection of data on the shop floor which were then used to populate Harry's book? The same process may have occurred during the build and despatch phases?

Again, something I need to confirm - either from books on the subject or by speaking directly to ex-employees. I have a contact from the racing department who is a wealth of really interesting information, but this is more specialist and I need someone who worked on the assembly line. I get the impression that the kind of people in the racing department were somewhat different characters selected for different attributes than the steady, reliable types who manned the assembly line.

Each of Harry's books covers the same VIN range as the related Build and Despatch records, so in total there are 6 books containing 1965 model year data (together with late 1964 and early 1966 data). The "T120C ET"s in the build and despatch records were recorded as "T120C" in Harry's book, with a note alongside them stating "ET Tachos". Only the TT had ET ignition and a tacho, so cross-referencing this with the data from the build and despatch record strengthens the case that the bikes recorded as "ET"s were the "TT"s (if not, then I cannot see how they would have been recorded).

Originally Posted By: OriginalScott

Regarding the stamps themselves: 1965 seems to be a transition year regarding the engine and frame stamps. According to your own research the only 1965 models to carry the T120 TT stamp were made in March and April. This was 191 1965 motorcycles actually stamped with T120 TT. This sounds suspiciously similar to the 141 quoted elsewhere. I can see a handwritten 9 being interpreted as a 4. Regardless, according to the evidence you provided there were 191 genuine T120 TT stamped bikes produced in 1965. Can you see how that statement is true and backed by research and evidence? It does not mean that there were only 191 T120 TT spec bikes produced in 1965, only that were only 191 officially stamped as T120 TT. The other question that comes with the stamp change is "why". What caused the factory to change the way they stamped a certain model midway through production? They must have known this was going to cause confusion to dealers and possibly departments of motor vehicles. I know of no other model that was changed like this without some accompanying specification change. I think there are some larger questions that need to be addressed before the numbers become meaningful and there are things the numbers show that may not be beneficial to your argument. Find a way to reconcile these things and your argument becomes much stronger.

Scott


Just to clarify, Scott, 1966 was the transition year (not 1965): no bikes had "T120TT" stamped on their crankcases until some point after the 1966 production year had started in late July or early August 1965. I'm not sure exactly at what point as I haven't started on '66 yet - Gaylin mentions it being 'after an initial batch'. The recording of them as "T120TT"s, the name by which they were to become known - and already were known in the US - precedes the use of the stamp on the crankcases.

Before the end of April 1965, I believe "TT Specials" were starting to be referred at the factory as "T120C ET"s - I have yet to see any mention of "TT" before the handful in February 1965 - but I haven't fully researched 1963 and 1964 so this is subject to confirmation. The only T120 with ET ignition produced in 1965 was the TT. The 191 "T120 TT" variants were not the only TTs produced in 1965 (or ever, before February 1965, if I am right that there are no TT records prior to this - TBC).

It might have been the case that a new model name ("T120TT") was planned during 1965 after US distributors had started calling the bikes "TT Specials". I do not believe this name originated from Triumph - it's a bit too imaginative! If you said "TT Special" to anyone in the UK at the time they would immediately think of the Isle of Man TT road races and believe you were referring to something like a Manx Norton. Very few people, then as now, would associate it with an American form of speedway with a jump. Anyone seeing a TT Special would probably wonder why it was called that - it clearly is not a road racer. I think this might have had something to do with the name being slow to catch on at the factory

We can see "TT" creeping into Triumph common parlance in Feb 1965, then from May 1965 the "ET" was no more, in the records (TBC - need to check the '66 records).

So that's what I've been doing. It's laborious, time consuming and easy to make mistakes doing this kind of data analysis: as I've advised, my initial count of 563 TTs for '65 was incorrect, the figure now being 528 (error due to some hastily executed handwritten calculations). The figures I have provided may well be subject to change as data is re-checked - but I don't expect them to be too far out. Please take them as provisional for the time being.

I think my method is a reliable one - while it takes longer, copying the data does make it easier to revisit it and check it (as I have done to reveal an inaccuracy in the original count). Just counting the applicable rows in the records might be quicker but it's more error prone and does not allow remote checking.

The task would be much, much easier if I had my own copy of the records. That isn't an option unfortunately, so once I have the figures I'm going to have to revisit the library and do some final checking. Each visit is a 3 hour round trip, so it's not a light undertaking (though I am lucky in being based in England enabling me to do this).

Ideally, I would carry out this research with someone else so we could check each others' work. This is what I have suggested to John Healy who has a friend in the UK doing the same thing as I, apparently (but whose figures differ, according to John). I have suggested passing on my spreadsheet to John's friend so he can verify it. It would be good to pool resources and share information, giving greater credibility to the results. I hope John's friend will get in touch (I've given John my name and full contact details so look forward to a response).

TT


Last edited by TT Rider; 08/08/14 10:12 am.



Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: KADUTZ] #557359
08/08/14 4:35 am
08/08/14 4:35 am
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Originally Posted By: KADUTZ
This whole VIN number thing sounds like everybody worrying about counterfeit T120RT's.

The AMA will not even give the numbers to TOMCC (Triumph Owners Club).


K


I think the T120RT is in something of a different league from the TT - that genuinely is 'one of the rarest and most collectible Triumphs on the planet'!




Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: John Healy] #557361
08/08/14 4:56 am
08/08/14 4:56 am
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
For heavens sake TT, Triumph made a 1977 Bonneville Silver Jubilee and marked right on the motorcycle for every one who was looking to buy one: 1 of 1,000. Then then set-out to make over 2,000. They never apologized, had any law suits from customers claiming they were swindled or did they look back. They then made a Limited Edition T140D and it was anything but limited.

As the auctioneer I worked with for years states at the beginning of his auctions: "If the bike on the stand is a 1970 Bonneville and the brochure states that it is a 1965 TR6, you are buying a 1970 Bonneville, not the one in the brochure." How do you think your big auction house in the UK gets away with selling bikes with altered motor numbers. At auction it is up to the buyer to do his own due diligence - Auctions are legally, and protected by law, as is, where is.


John, we've already established elsewhere that an auction house, like an estate agent, is not liable for what a seller, on whose behalf they are acting, states about the item being sold. The seller is. I still think you will find that if a motorcycle was sold by auction as being one in three when it was in fact one in three thousands, then a buyer who had paid a premium on it on that understanding could successfully sue the seller (but not the auction house or estate agent). In the case of a private sale - which is what I have been discussing - the case is more straightforward. A seller cannot mis-advertise his or her product.

You seem hell-bent on arguing the opposite, that a seller can say whatever they want about the product he's selling and if he manages to hoodwink the buyer into parting with cash for it on the basis of his description, then it's just 'caveat emptor' and the seller is legally entitled to dance around shouting "Yah, boo, sucks to you with knobs on!" to the hapless buyer. That may well be the law in the US, where the legal system has more of a Wild West ethos - but it's different in the UK where we're just a bunch of prissy old fuddy duddies (who can't restore bikes properly)! laughing

We clearly don't see eye to eye on this so can we just drop it now and move on?

Thanks.

TT




Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557365
08/08/14 5:10 am
08/08/14 5:10 am
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kommando Online content
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The Consumer Protection Act and Sale of goods acts which in the UK gives buyers protection does not apply to private sales only consumer purchases from a company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Goods_Act_1979

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Protection_Act_1987

For private sales in the UK it is buyer beware, no come back.

Hence the term 'Sold as seen' written on bills of sale.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557369
08/08/14 5:33 am
08/08/14 5:33 am
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An excellent thread - it's not just about smacking your knuckles with spanners in cold garages.

Hats off to our intrepid researcher for the time and effort devoted to this quest.

I've just done similar for a 1920s make, which used (among other proprietary makes) sleeve-valve engines made by Barr & Stroud in Glasgow, Scotland.
The Barr & Stroud records are in Glasgow University library, and a chap in Australia had done the legwork, giving me a figure of 32 machines over about two years, with order and dispatch dates, and some spec details.

Top comment so far:

"I'll walk right by a pristine TT in order to get a '67 TR6R, one of the sweetest and most desirable motorcycles ever made, even though they are a bit more prosaic."

Pot luck that I ended up with the '67 TR6R (an ex-TriCor re-import). It was what was there on the day when I went to have a look around!

In terms of the rideability of these models, I think we're prepared to put up with a lot of shortcomings and inconveniences if something looks cool - and Triumphs are no different to anything else.

Nick


"1967 TR6R"
Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557372
08/08/14 6:08 am
08/08/14 6:08 am
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in a UK Auction, unless the auction expressly states that there is an exemption, which is not a normal event, then The Sale of Goods Act applies and sales are regarded as a business sale, even on second hand goods.

The "buyer beware" only applies if it is stated at the time, and no claims are made.
you can't sell a "59 Bonneveille" that turns out to be fake and just stick 'sold as seen" on the receipt.

however, in a private sale, it's harder to prove who said what

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: kommando] #557373
08/08/14 6:16 am
08/08/14 6:16 am
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Originally Posted By: kommando
The Consumer Protection Act and Sale of goods acts which in the UK gives buyers protection does not apply to private sales only consumer purchases from a company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_Goods_Act_1979

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Protection_Act_1987

For private sales in the UK it is buyer beware, no come back.

Hence the term 'Sold as seen' written on bills of sale.



Interesting! Clearly it is OK to to describe something as being entirely different than it actually is when selling it. Though if someone was trading as a business (which I suspect many restorers are - including quite possibly the guy in the US who sparked off the related thread) then I assume they would need to comply with the terms of the above-mentioned Acts.

Clearly in the UK we too are permitted to use our wits and ingenuity to con buyers into parting with their cash - I'll bear that in mind next time I sell something! Thanks for pointing it out grin

Last edited by TT Rider; 08/08/14 6:19 am.



Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: AngloBike] #557376
08/08/14 7:13 am
08/08/14 7:13 am
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Originally Posted By: AngloBike
in a UK Auction, unless the auction expressly states that there is an exemption, which is not a normal event, then The Sale of Goods Act applies and sales are regarded as a business sale, even on second hand goods.

The "buyer beware" only applies if it is stated at the time, and no claims are made.
you can't sell a "59 Bonneveille" that turns out to be fake and just stick 'sold as seen" on the receipt.

however, in a private sale, it's harder to prove who said what


This is more aligned to what I'd expect - particularly regarding the obligation on behalf of the vendor not to sell something which purports to be something it isn't.

I've no doubt the legalities of such practise are convoluted and maybe different in the US than in the UK. Regardless of the legalities, the sale of goods should be carried out to the mutual benefit of the buyer and seller - not as some kind of battle where the buyer is free to embellish his goods with attributes they don't have in an attempt to con the buyer into paying more money for them.

Some might even argue it's "morally wrong" to act in this manner. Now I know that particular phrase is considered a bit old-fashioned and quaint and not really relevant today, so I'm not getting drawn into going down that route - but it's a thought, none the less.

TT




Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557378
08/08/14 7:18 am
08/08/14 7:18 am
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Even a Trader could guild the lily with impunity on the sales blurb, the main purpose of the consumer protection acts is

Goods are safe;
Unsafe goods, or goods which would be unsafe in the hands of certain persons, are not made available to persons generally;
That appropriate, and only appropriate, information is provided in relation to goods.

So mis-describing a T120R as a T120TT would be actionable in court, selling a T120TT and saying it was one of 141 etc would not get far in court as long as it was a T120TT.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557389
08/08/14 9:18 am
08/08/14 9:18 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,359
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
+1 ref MagnetoMans comments.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: kommando] #557394
08/08/14 9:44 am
08/08/14 9:44 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 596
Near London, England
T
TT Rider Offline OP
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TT Rider  Offline OP
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T
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 596
Near London, England
I'm not a lawyer so I can't determine whether your comments are true, kommando. I suspect that if you are misled by someone into buying something that purports to be something that it isn't - in this case a motorcycle of higher value than it is based on false claims of rarity - you would still have a case. Maybe not under the acts you mention, but I'm fairly sure you would have some form of redress.

If you are a lawyer specialising in such cases, I might take your word for it. If not, I'll continue thinking along the lines above. I could no doubt spend time going through various acts and finding the information to support my argument (or even speak to some of the great lawyers and crooks I count as friends), but I have better things to do (like at this minute setting the timing on my 'One of One Hundred and Forty One' T120).

Quite aside from the legalities above, as already stated, I believe there is value in finding out the correct production figures for the T120 TT. I have been unable to find any substantiated figures to date and the ones out there are very much at odds with the works records. Research so far indicates the TT is not as rare as people imagine.

I would have thought anyone interested in TTs, particularly owners, might want an accurate idea of how many were built. This is the principal reason why I'm carrying out the research. If it happens to assist in keeping prices in check in the UK by acting as a corrective to the false figures propagated around the internet, then so much the better.

TT




Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557403
08/08/14 10:48 am
08/08/14 10:48 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Online content
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kommando  Online Content
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Posts: 9,375
Scotland
I deal in Contract Law all the time but not as a lawyer, it is not criminal law but civil law so the burden of proof is lower but there are few written laws only case precedents built up over time which in the UK is centuries.

For private sales where the only contract is the bill of sale you are pretty much on your own.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557408
08/08/14 11:24 am
08/08/14 11:24 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,359
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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Tridentman  Offline

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New Jersey USA
The classic motorcycling fraternity is a broad church--and long may it remain so.
At the one extreme we have TT Rider who is keenly interested in the details of T120TT bike manufacturing and dispatch records.
Great--that is fine.
At the other extreme you have other people--myself included--who like a bike for what it is, how it looks and how it performs. Not particularly interested in the records of its birth or how many were made.
IMHO--that also is great and fine.
Also--IMHO--if you are buying a bike then it is up to you to do your own research, look over the bike thoroughly, test it out if running etc. You then make a decision--do you want to buy it and at what price. If you want it and you reach a financial deal then you buy it--for better or for worse.
I never take much notice of what the seller says--it is only an indicator that this MIGHT be a bike I would like to buy.
The law in these matters?--forget about it--waste of time and money.
And I say this as someone who is married to a judge!
HTH

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557415
08/08/14 12:14 pm
08/08/14 12:14 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,375
Scotland
kommando Online content
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kommando  Online Content
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Posts: 9,375
Scotland
In the UK contract law there is one ruling which means its rarely useful taking court action, this is the principle that you can never make any gain from taking action, you can only get yourself back to the position you were in before the contact was broken. So forget about penalties and punishment or hurt feelings etc, if you paid 15000 for a T120TT and it was a T120R worth 9000 you can only claim for the difference e.g. 6000 plus costs. When you consider the risks involved in losing eg having to pay the other sides costs its best to do a deal outside the court.

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557450
08/08/14 3:28 pm
08/08/14 3:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 519
NY
OriginalScott Offline
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NY
Thank you TT for describing your methods and sources. You are doing a good job at this and the final conclusions will have been researched and vetted (I think this is what we are really doing in these threads). One thing has me curious though and that is the build and despatch books themselves. You describe them as being a combination of printed and handwritten information. Are these books truly the only factory records kept on builds, models, and shipping destinations? I guess what I mean to say is there must have been more immediate records kept along the production lines, inspection department, and shipping department which would then be officially compiled, printed and transferred to the managers/offices. The Woolridge notes come to mind here but kept by people lesser known to the Triumph enthusiasts and only as source data for the official books. I would love to have a few hours to sit in the VMCC library to look at these records, just to get a glimpse of the day to day factory operations.

Scott

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557453
08/08/14 4:11 pm
08/08/14 4:11 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
The production numbers for 1966 and 1967 were published in Gaylin's Restoration book in 1997. These were supplied by Harry Woolridge who David was working closely with during the writing of the book. Harry was in possession of one of the copies of the books (the other was in a Museum in London as I understand it) at the time. He started the verification scheme where you would send him the motor numbers and he would issue you a certificate. He later, under some pressure, relinquished the records to the VMCC.

Compiling numbers for 1964 and 1965 is another matter. In those years Tricor offered a bike that sported a TT engine mounted in a T120R rolling chassis. It was called and numbered as a T120C (as was the TT), It was described as Competition Sport in the sales brochure. I am sure these were recorded as T120C in the records (you could confirm this).

As these are not really TT's in the strictest sense, and actually much rarer than the real TT, and although they would be listed as T120C in the records, some would say that you wouldn't count them as TT models. You mention the notation ET next to some T120C numbers. I would make a wild guess and say that these T120c models were the TT models as the T120C Competition Sport had a battery.

The T120C Competition Sport was a pretty rare bike. We took one in trade in May 5th 1966 and sold it on May 19, 1966 (from our Used Car record book). The numbers were T120C DU126xx. I remember it well as there were two people trying to out bid each other on the sales floor. Larry Osborne of Needham Mass won out...


Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557455
08/08/14 4:26 pm
08/08/14 4:26 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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Boston, Massachusetts
As a note of interest to anyone buying at auction I advise that they read the terms of sale which include the following:
The Bonham's US Terms include:
7. All statements contained in the catalog or in any bill of sale, condition
report, invoice or elsewhere as to authorship, period, culture, source, origin,
measurement, quality, rarity, provenance, importance, exhibition and
literature of historical relevance, or physical condition ARE QUALIFIED
STATEMENTS OF OPINION AND NOT REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES.
No employee or agent of Bonhams is authorized to make on our behalf or
on that of the consignor any representation or warranty, oral or written,
with respect to any property.

The Bonham's UK terms include:
A photograph or illustration may not
reflect an accurate reproduction of the colour(s) of the Lot. Lots
are available for inspection prior to the Sale and it is for you to
satisfy yourself as to each and every aspect of a Lot, including
its authorship, attribution, condition, provenance, history,
background, authenticity, style, period, age, suitability, quality,
roadworthiness (if relevant), origin, value and estimated selling
price (including the Hammer Price). It is your responsibility
to examine any Lot in which you are interested.

Jerry Wood, who did the Daytona, and other motorcycle auctions for years, include similar language.


Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557481
08/08/14 8:52 pm
08/08/14 8:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 781
in my house
K
KADUTZ Offline
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Posts: 781
in my house
TT

If your interested there might be a T120RT going up for sale(NOT MINE). I believe its a West Coast RT.

As far as the earlier reference to the Silver Jubilee model (I bought mine 8/08/88 for about $400) For some reason the production figure of 2483 sticks in my mind. I always found it interesting Triumph at this time had to quickly sell about 2500 bikes to retire a debt.


K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: TT Rider] #557519
08/09/14 6:45 am
08/09/14 6:45 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,633
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Offline
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UK Berks
Bonhams can put anything in their terms and conditions but even at an auction, in the uk, they are liable to miss description laws.
This is why unhallmarked metal is described as "white metal" rather than silver. It's kind of a code for "possibly silver" .

So they need to be creative in their descriptions.


Under uk law there are various rules and regulations that you cannot sign away, no matter what notices are posted

Re: Online publication of TT Special VIN ranges [Re: John Healy] #557526
08/09/14 7:36 am
08/09/14 7:36 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 596
Near London, England
T
TT Rider Offline OP
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TT Rider  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 596
Near London, England
Originally Posted By: John Healy
The production numbers for 1966 and 1967 were published in Gaylin's Restoration book in 1997. These were supplied by Harry Woolridge who David was working closely with during the writing of the book. Harry was in possession of one of the copies of the books (the other was in a Museum in London as I understand it) at the time. He started the verification scheme where you would send him the motor numbers and he would issue you a certificate. He later, under some pressure, relinquished the records to the VMCC.

Compiling numbers for 1964 and 1965 is another matter. In those years Tricor offered a bike that sported a TT engine mounted in a T120R rolling chassis. It was called and numbered as a T120C (as was the TT), It was described as Competition Sport in the sales brochure. I am sure these were recorded as T120C in the records (you could confirm this).

As these are not really TT's in the strictest sense, and actually much rarer than the real TT, and although they would be listed as T120C in the records, some would say that you wouldn't count them as TT models. You mention the notation ET next to some T120C numbers. I would make a wild guess and say that these T120c models were the TT models as the T120C Competition Sport had a battery.

The T120C Competition Sport was a pretty rare bike. We took one in trade in May 5th 1966 and sold it on May 19, 1966 (from our Used Car record book). The numbers were T120C DU126xx. I remember it well as there were two people trying to out bid each other on the sales floor. Larry Osborne of Needham Mass won out...


John

With all due respect, I have covered the differences between the Competition Sport and the TT Special in previous threads, provided details of the method I used to count both models and given my figures: 241 Competition Sports in '65, 528 TT Specials. I have discussed at length how TTs can be identifies as they were the only Bonneville with ET ignition and were known at the factory as "T120C ET" or "T120 ET". If you read my other threads you will find all this discussed in a degree of detail which has probably put most people off reading them!

The Competition Sport (or 'street scrambler') is the rarer of the two - Gaylin alludes to this in his restoration guide where there are several pictures of one ('One of the most sought-after Triumphs ever made!).

I have already provided this information in previous threads.

To summarise:

The TT Special was distributed to both East and West Coasts, with minor variations.

Only the East Coast got the Competition Sports Bonneville scrambler, which was discontinued after 1965.

Both East and West Coast got the single carb TR6SC Trophy Sports scrambler. This was the scrambler equivalent of the TT, having the batteryless ET ignition (the Bonneville scrambler had points and coils). The West Coast Trophy Special version differed from the East Coast one and was intended for desert racing (I don't have all the details yet - this is my next area of research after the TTs).

The West Coast Trophy Special TR6SC (which wasn't called that in the records) was a factory produced desert sled - Triumph's response to the desert sled phenomenon in the West, where there was a big interest in customising bikes with Bates seats, high level pipes, specialist air filters etc. for desert use. These were usually single carb bikes.

Regarding the figures Gaylin has provided for '66 and '67 TTs, I suspect these are true. But as someone has pointed out in another thread, "Gaylin isn't God - or Clapton", and there's no harm in verifying his counts. This is not a criticism of Gaylin - his books are well-researched and excellent reading. His figure for '67 TTs is 1100 - my figure was exactly 1100 too (I've explained at length my method). That's good news for both of us!

I haven't counted the '66 TTs but will do so before long. Gaylins figure (798) seems reasonable.

Prior to the introduction of the "T120TT" model identifier in the factory records at the end of 1965 production, it's a little more difficult to obtain the figures for all the US only competition bikes. This is the reason I believe why nobody - including Gaylin - has carried out this research, and why instead we have made-up figures.

However, it's by no means impossible - there is enough information to identify them with a reasonably high degree of certainty. I believe my figures for '65 are accurate. I have carried out a preliminary count of the 1964 TTs - I believe there are at least 200 (compared to the Morris figure of 136) - but haven't finalised these yet, so this is very much provisional.

I will be looking at '63 shortly.

TT



Last edited by TT Rider; 08/16/14 4:49 am. Reason: Correction



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