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British Std Whitworth???? #55513
07/09/07 8:40 pm
07/09/07 8:40 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Phillips Ranch, California
6
66 Victor Endro Offline OP
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66 Victor Endro  Offline OP
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Phillips Ranch, California
Okay, I'm new and you've probably discussed this a million times... Where do you get British Std Whitworth nuts and bolts? Does anyone sell complete sets for specific makes and models? I have a 66 BSA Victor Endro and would like to use new correct nuts and bolts. Thanks for your help.
Steve

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Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55514
07/09/07 10:51 pm
07/09/07 10:51 pm
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Posts: 258
palmdale ca
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bmls Offline
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Go to search option and look up Whitworth B.M.L.S.

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55515
07/10/07 2:22 am
07/10/07 2:22 am
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arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
Victor: Yes, it gets discussed a lot.....but always interesting. You don't really want any BSW stuff, I think. That is for MGs and Jaguars and the like. Fasteners on our bikes were often colloquially called "Whitworth" because wrench sizes are the same. What they are actually is Cycle thread (CEI?), UNF, UNC etc., etc. It takes a little study, and some thread gauges and such.

British Fasteners, a board sponsor, is supposed to be real good. If you only need a few pieces, easy way is to order by part number.

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55516
07/10/07 2:59 am
07/10/07 2:59 am
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Posts: 173
Saltspring Island BC Can
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B4450Paul Offline
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Victor
in 1969 BSA changed to american nuts and bolts

only odd bits like clutch center and swingarm nuts stayed CEI .

the 1969/70 parts book for your model lists the bolt threads .

copy's are available from british cycle supply and other fine suppliers who advertise here .
paul

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55517
07/10/07 4:24 am
07/10/07 4:24 am
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Posts: 3,245
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
For your 66, I don't think the parts manual often helps with sizes and thread forms. Starting with the 69 parts books they spelled it out a little.

Here are some examples: Your primary case screws, these are cheesehead CEI 1/4" 26 TPI. (Cycle Engineers Institute 1/4 inch 26 threads per inch. Or the screws holding the carb top on- 2BA. (British Association size 2)

And inside engine, a headbolt might be 3/8 BSF, British standard fine I think. A head stud might be BSF on one end and BSC on the other. (British standard cycle)

69 and 70 bikes were beginning to have "Unified Fine" and "Unified Coarse" threads.

Here is some useful trivia you may not know: Those nice engine cover screws that everybody butchered with Phillips drivers.....they were never Phillips, but Pozidrive. If you buy any of them be sure and get a #3 Pozidrive tip and you won't booger them up. I found #3 Posidrive driver tip at my local True Value Hardware.

All of the above is more or less true.

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55518
07/10/07 11:31 am
07/10/07 11:31 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Phillips Ranch, California
6
66 Victor Endro Offline OP
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Phillips Ranch, California
Thanks for the information. Wow, they didn't make things easy for us did they? Oh well, if it was easy everyone would be doing it, right? I'll use your info and start my search now....

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55519
07/10/07 11:53 am
07/10/07 11:53 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,022
Stone Creek OH USA
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Rich B Offline

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If you can lay your hands ona British Only catalogue, do it. They list the thread size and fastern length in their descriptions/part numbers. Invaluable when redoing a bike.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55520
07/10/07 12:16 pm
07/10/07 12:16 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,855
Maryland
JD Offline

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Here's another way to verify thread size and fastener length, as long as you have the part number: BSA Fasteners

Thanks to norbsa for the info.


Josh
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55521
07/10/07 8:19 pm
07/10/07 8:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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Cheshire UK
On Monday I attended my daughter's graduation for Psychology.

It was in at Manchester University in the Whitworth Hall, where she was given a BSC.

Well.....I thought it was funny...

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55522
07/15/07 11:19 pm
07/15/07 11:19 pm
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Posts: 918
hampshire, england
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t120mike Offline
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hampshire, england
Slightly off topic.....

But still with Whitworth... I was browsing in Hursts in St Mary Bourne yesterday for a 5/16" BSW die (seemingly the only size they didn't have, sadly), when I wandered into a leaking corrugated iron shed FULL of BIG Imperial wrenches and reamers and morse tapers and, and, and. Some of them still had the original preservative on, unused and probably never will be used.
And, all I could do is think of this once proud nation's industrial heritage rotting, unwanted, destined like the skilled engineers who actually built things, for the scrapheap. Good for the BritBiker who wants a couple of ring spanners to tighten up his rear axle bolts, bad for those old enough to remember. The whole Meriden thing came flooding back and gave me a fit of the blues.


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
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Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55523
07/16/07 4:33 am
07/16/07 4:33 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,369
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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It would also be a good idea to get some British thread gauges; I know British Tools and Fasteners has them.

Most of your engine hardware will be CEI, 1/4" X 26 tpi and 5/16" X 26 tpi. Any 3/8" bolts are also 26 tpi., but I believe the only 3/8" bolts are cylinder head bolts, and you would probably want to replace those by BSA part number.

Some of the chassis hardware is Unified, which carries the same thread densities as SAE.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55524
07/16/07 7:33 am
07/16/07 7:33 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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"Fasteners on our bikes were often colloquially called "Whitworth" because wrench sizes are the same. What they are actually is Cycle thread (CEI?), "

I can vouch for that, on Monday 9th I was in Whitworth Hall in Manchester University seeing my eldest daughter being presented with a BSC. Funny how your mind works. I though about that at the time.

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55525
07/17/07 1:36 pm
07/17/07 1:36 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 146
Lyons, NY
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Britishtools Offline

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Lyons, NY
All of the previous posts on Whitworth are correct.

The term "Whitworth", the type of tool you need to turn the head on BSC & BSF etc, fasteners should NOT be confused with BSW (British Standard Whitworth) which is a thread profile in itself.

All fasteners that have BSF, BSC or BSW thread profiles require Whitworth tools to turn them properly.

BTW - We carry Whitworth thread gauges. They probably wont help much for the guys that have all BSC hardware of course!

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55526
07/17/07 3:42 pm
07/17/07 3:42 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 804
Halifax, Butt end of Europe
andrewinpopayan Offline
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Quote:
I can vouch for that, on Monday 9th I was in Whitworth Hall in Manchester University seeing my eldest daughter being presented with a BSC. Funny how your mind works. I though about that at the time.
What if it was a BA in Electrical engineering?


99% of carb problems are electrical.

1959 3TA

BMW R1150 Oilhead
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55527
08/09/07 8:06 am
08/09/07 8:06 am
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 255
Vancouver Island
waspfarmer Offline
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Vancouver Island
Which brings us back to Do.... A deer, ect.

Seriously, could someone explain again using charts and graphs and diagrams/hand gestures? If it dosn't screw in easily with fingers, STOP!

Where's a good place to buy thread guages for British motorbikes? Surely, one can throw money at the problem! confused


"This is not work you want to do after a couple of beers."
(RF Whatley)
"have a fire extinquisher handy or be careful"
(rmaffeo)
1968 Atlas
1998 Daytona 955i
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Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55528
08/09/07 6:05 pm
08/09/07 6:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,693
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by waspfarmer:
Where's a good place to buy thread guages for British motorbikes?
No such thing - at least, I hope not and, if there is, it's someone trying to sell you something you don't need.

*A* thread gauge is a small piece of metal with a series of serrations along one edge and a number stamped on it. If it's just a number, it'll be the number of teeth per inch that the serrations match; if it's a decimal (e.g. '1.25' or '0.8'), it'll be a metric thread gauge and the number refers to the pitch (the distance between any two adjacent teeth).

Normally, thread gauges are gathered together on a pivot and inside a protective cover, like feeler gauges. The idea is, you try a series of 'em 'til one set of serrations fall exactly into the the dips on a bolt or nut thread; you then know the tpi (Imperial/Unified) or the pitch (metric).

You buy sets of thread gauges at an engineering supplier; at the same place, buy a decent micrometer and something like the Zeus book. This is because, once you know the tpi/pitch, you need the micrometer to measure the diameter of the shank; you then take both bits of information to the Zeus book and it'll tell you what thread you have.

A couple of caveats:-

1. Do look for a 27 tpi thread gauge. 27 tpi is 1/8" National Pipe thread, as used on BSA and Triumph oil pressure senders from '69. Before '69, certainly Triumph used 3/8" Cycle (26 tpi), and certain :rolleyes: people mix 1/8"NP up with 1/8"BSP (British Standard Pipe, 28 tpi). The thread length on oil pressure senders is so short that, ime, you cannot reliably interpolate 27tpi from 26 and 28tpi thread gauges, you need a 27tpi (or a 54tpi) one.

2. Imho, don't bother investing in thread gauges with a number higher than about 30 (40 max., except 54 wink ) or pitch smaller than about 0.7mm (0.5mm max.); this is because ime you simply can't see whether the serrations match a given thread. An example: 2BA, 3/16"BSF, 3/16"UNF (aka No.10UNF) and M5 all have similar shank o.d.; 2BA is 31.4tpi, 3/16"BSF and 3/16"UNF are 32 tpi and M5 is 0.8 pitch (31.8 tpi), yet an M5 bolt won't screw into a 2BA nut; I defy anyone to tell 'em apart with just thread gauge and micrometer. Imho, a much simpler system is marked resealable plastic bags with an appropriate nut and screw or bolt in each.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55529
08/10/07 1:24 am
08/10/07 1:24 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,263
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline
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Hamilton, Mass. USA
Did I miss something?

Well, I guess since this thread is not on the "BSA" exclusive board, I should interject with ....at least my Norton heavy twins, in addition to CEI threads, it does in fact use BSF and BSW.
Well..... now that I think of it even my BSA A-10 has BSW threads? beerchug


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55530
08/10/07 1:41 am
08/10/07 1:41 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,715
Maui Hawaii
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Yes I think you are right. My Triumphs used ALMOST ALL CEI fasteners. There are two 5/16 22TP1 applications. One engine case bolt and 4 handlebar clamp bolts. I seem to remember my A10's had a lot more BSW fasteners. Right?


Bikes
1974 Commando
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Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55531
08/10/07 12:01 pm
08/10/07 12:01 pm
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Posts: 3,245
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
Thats why I do always like these fastener threads, learn something every time. Working on Japanese bikes or other Euro bikes must be kinda boring!

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55532
08/10/07 12:23 pm
08/10/07 12:23 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 804
Halifax, Butt end of Europe
andrewinpopayan Offline
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Halifax, Butt end of Europe
BSW? maybe BSC.


99% of carb problems are electrical.

1959 3TA

BMW R1150 Oilhead
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55533
08/10/07 8:32 pm
08/10/07 8:32 pm
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Posts: 9,693
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by dynodave:
Norton heavy twins, in addition to CEI threads, it does in fact use BSF and BSW.
Yep, particularly BSW - aiui, when British bike makers moved to Unified threads, Norton didn't use UNC (because of the possibility of confusion with earlier BSW-threaded parts?).

Quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianTiger:
My Triumphs used ALMOST ALL CEI fasteners. There are two 5/16 22TP1 applications. One engine case bolt and 4 handlebar clamp bolts.
As standard, your Triumph would've left Meriden with CEI threads into iron and steel (including bolts and screws into nuts) and BSF threads into aluminium alloy - 5/16" x 22tpi is BSF and, at 1/4", CEI and BSF have the same tpi.

That standard applied to components made in-house or by suppliers that could be influenced; otoh, components supplied by, for example, AMAL or Lucas generally used whatever threads the suppliers favoured (BA, Cycle, BSW, UNF and metric tmk).

Quote:
Originally posted by dynodave:
my BSA A-10 has BSW threads?
Quote:
Originally posted by HawaiianTiger:
I seem to remember my A10's had a lot more BSW fasteners.
Aiui, as BSA and Triumph were part of the same company, they both used the same engineering standards.

Quote:
Originally posted by andrewinpopayan:
BSW? maybe BSC.
Afaik, 'BSW' stood for the coarse British Standard thread form, while 'BSCY' stands for British Standard Cycle, so no 'BSC' (for British Standard Coarse?) because of the possiblity of confusion with the aforementioned BSCY.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55534
08/11/07 1:39 am
08/11/07 1:39 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,369
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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The set of thread gauges I got from British Tools and Fasteners has just about every thread density between 10 and 30 with very few gaps. The same set also includes metric gauges. Between those and my SAE thread gauges, I don't worry about classifying hardware anymore, I just measure.

Another little aside: Some models used handlebar controls made in Italy, so you may find some metric hardware there.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55535
08/11/07 8:12 am
08/11/07 8:12 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,757
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
If you want a slightly easier time when identifying threads you need the aforementioned thread pitch gauges which cover all eventualities and you need a "Zeus Book" which contains all thread forms, Cycle CEI, BSF, BSW, BSP, UNF,UNC, BA and Metric and a few others, along with a wealth of other good stuff like tapping drill sizes.
Ask at a good tool supplier or search Zeus book at a Net site.
BSF threads in alloy are delicate , the later switch to UNC was a good thing .
My old 69 Tbolt didnt make the change, but it is was an early in the year model.
Cheers
Pod


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55536
08/11/07 8:40 am
08/11/07 8:40 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,757
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
Another thing, theres not much Whitworth (Coarse) series threading on old Brits, BSF and Cycle evolved to finer thread series because of the need for Vibration resistance,
an interesting anorakfact, BSP (Pipe thread ) and Whit share the same same thread pitch and form but BSP sizes are quoted by Pipe Inside Diameter.
True Whit threads are very coarse lumpen generally low tolerance and "Roch" and only considered useful for low tolerance clumpen work like boiler plates and girders, a Whit thread is stronger than a BSF thread and will accept more torgue, but due to the quick thread slackens fast for a given rotation, no use on a rattly brit twin .
Many Brit makers used a fine thread bolt BSF or Cycle with a reduced head to the next size down head size but still using whit head standards.

Saves a lot of weight. True Whit is generally seen in big scale Power industry applications.

Poor Mr WHitworth, his name causes such confusion.

I have free access to mountains of Whit bolts and nuts,at work we have lots of 50s -60s heavy plant.
None of it fits my BSAs,, although I have seen some 7/16 Whit used on Nortons, one tapped hole in a featherbed frame and some tin ware.

BSF( engine fasteners), Cycle( Headstock and various oddities), BA( Control levers, twist grip, carbs,electrics) , BSP (Fuel tap/tank.

The weirdest threads on your bike are the cotter pin nut ( 1/64" bigger than a 1/4 nut , a very weird Cycle thread only used for this application).
The LHS footrest mount nut is a left hand thread.

Sorry about the long post but its a big topic.
Pod


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: British Std Whitworth???? #55537
08/12/07 12:00 am
08/12/07 12:00 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,693
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi Pod,

Long time, no hear. bigt

Quote:
Originally posted by pod:
an interesting anorakfact, BSP (Pipe thread ) and Whit share the same same thread pitch and form but BSP sizes are quoted by Pipe Inside Diameter.
Sadly, AIA that'd be wrong. frown E.g. ime, the BSP threads you're most likely to find on a Brit. bike are 1/8" and 1/4"; 1/8"BSP is 28tpi and 0.383" o.d. while 3/8"BSW is 16 tpi and 0.375" o.d. (or 3/8"BSF is 20 tpi), 1/4"BSP is 19tpi and 0.656" o.d. while 1/2"BSW is 12 tpi and 0.5" o.d. (or 1/2"BSF is 16 tpi).

Quote:
Originally posted by pod:
BA( Control levers, twist grip, carbs,
Actually, ime, AMAL barely seemed to have used the same threadform more than once! eek While carb. tops and float bowls are secured with 2BA screws, drain plugs are 3/8" Cycle and adjusters are machine thread (40 tpi). On the twistgrip, while the adjuster screws are 2BA, the 'bar clamp screws are 7/32"BSF. :rolleyes:

Hth.

Regards,

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