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Rubber ring in fork - what for? #552893
07/14/14 3:27 pm
07/14/14 3:27 pm
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nr Witney, Oxfordshire
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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Within the big chrome oil seal holders that screw onto the sliders of the forks on my 1970 A65 there are some thin rubber O rings.

I thought they went inside the groves to act as a kind of oil seal but we've been told they go between the washer that sits on top of the bush and the big chrome seal holder/nut thing and act to reduce vibration / chatter.

Can anyone shed some light on this please and what sort of thickness they should be. The ones in the forks were slim - slim enough to fit inside the grooves

Thanks


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
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Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #552950
07/14/14 9:45 pm
07/14/14 9:45 pm
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kommando Offline
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They go in the grooves on the fork bottoms below the threaded section, pre 70ish they were bits of string.

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553040
07/15/14 2:22 pm
07/15/14 2:22 pm
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There is no grove on the fork bottoms/sliders.
It's just thread that blends out.


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553051
07/15/14 3:03 pm
07/15/14 3:03 pm
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kommando Offline
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Olly is right, I was getting mixed up with the 1970 VS which still was using the old BSA fork bottoms, a 1970 A65 will be using a Triumph fork, the O ring goes in the seal holder where there is a groove to act as as a seal.

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553066
07/15/14 4:16 pm
07/15/14 4:16 pm
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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...can anyone confirm please....several of the big parts suppliers in the UK are convinced it serves as a chatter reducer and does not sit in the grove of the deal holder - I believe it does.


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553071
07/15/14 4:20 pm
07/15/14 4:20 pm
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kommando Offline
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You best put a pic up, there are several other parts other than the O ring that are used in the assembly.

The rings shown in this eBay listing are fitted to the sealholders

http://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/141343965825?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553107
07/15/14 8:28 pm
07/15/14 8:28 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Olly is right, I was getting mixed up with the 1970 VS which still was using the old BSA fork bottoms, a 1970 A65 will be using a Triumph fork, the O ring goes in the seal holder where there is a groove to act as as a seal.


+1 for Kommando, my 70 with the shuttle forks are like this and they are there to help prevent any oil that may get past the seal running down the fork legs.

Dave

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553145
07/16/14 1:56 am
07/16/14 1:56 am
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
You best put a pic up, there are several other parts other than the O ring that are used in the assembly.

The rings shown in this eBay listing are fitted to the sealholders

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141343965825?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649


I'll take some photos at the weekend. I couldn't find an exploded diagram of the 1970 forks on the internet, I did look though.

But yes, those are definitely the little O rings I'm talking about.

I wonder what the parts vendors were talking about, it was my father who had the conversation with them but the idea of a ring sandwiched between seal holder and bush is plain odd in my mind.


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553147
07/16/14 2:51 am
07/16/14 2:51 am
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kommando Offline
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There are Triumph parts books online

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Parts/1970s/1970PartsManualTriumph650s.pdf

Just remember there are differences but in the bush and seal area they are the same.

Seem to remember there is a washer in that area of the seal/bush but it was metal.

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553286
07/17/14 2:12 am
07/17/14 2:12 am
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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...........ok
so I guess the next question is what's the washer for that goes above the bush and presses on the machined metal lip on the oil seal holder smile
Any ideas?

p.s. thanks for link


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553294
07/17/14 4:32 am
07/17/14 4:32 am
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kommando Offline
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No idea, you just have to follow the instructions, maybe its to keep the seal far enough away from the bush it does not get distorted but as long as it works who cares.

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553375
07/17/14 4:54 pm
07/17/14 4:54 pm
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the seal is separated by a great big machined lip in the seal holder.

Not sure there isn't remove for "improvement" on a 44 year old bike smile


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553417
07/17/14 9:11 pm
07/17/14 9:11 pm
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kommando Offline
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Yes there is, in fact I have adjustable damping fitted to these very type forks wink. You have to pick what's going to give you benefit, that washer is just minding it own business so leave it be 2c

Some more mods to consider here if you have a T120 but I have done similar to a B44.

http://britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=517534#Post517534

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553445
07/18/14 12:50 am
07/18/14 12:50 am
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Olly:

The confusion seems to be around the type of forks you have. If you have the 66-68 rod damper BSA forks you would have a fork slider without the earlier circlip to hold in the top bushing. As per this photo there is no groove in the slider to accept a circlip. Instead there is the special spacer shown that goes in small end first to hold the top bush in place.

[Linked Image]

The next photo shows the spacer loosely in place and what is missing is an o-ring to seal up the space between the end of the fork slider and the spacer rim. When the seal holder is threaded onto the slider the edge of the seal inside it pushes down on the spacer and compresses the o-ring.

What is strange is that my 66 and 68 A65 parts books do not show the o-ring but it is shown in the 69 and 70 B44 parts book that have the same rod damper BSA forks.

[Linked Image]

The 69 should have the Triumph style fork which has an o-ring inside a groove in the seal holder.

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: kommando] #553448
07/18/14 1:15 am
07/18/14 1:15 am
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
that washer is just minding it own business so leave it be


Ummm...that's the problem, it's missing on one set of forks, wondered if it was worth tracking down replacements.

Will peruse your mods shortly smile


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #553450
07/18/14 1:18 am
07/18/14 1:18 am
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Beeza750 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
Olly:
The next photo shows the spacer loosely in place and what is missing is an o-ring to seal up the space between the end of the fork slider and the spacer rim. When the seal holder is threaded onto the slider the edge of the seal inside it pushes down on the spacer and compresses the o-ring.


ah haaaaaa....very interesting thanks.

Still doesn't explain why the vendors spout that it's to stop "chatter". I think we'll put it down to judicious assumptions made by them when looking at the exploded parts diagram.


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553464
07/18/14 4:31 am
07/18/14 4:31 am
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kommando Offline
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I tried assembling without it once and the seal holder either ran out of thread or jammed before all the space was taken up, this allowed the bush to move up and cluck a bit. Not really sure as it so long ago but I think I then bought the washers (I was missing both side) and then it all went together ok and the bush seated ok. But why not make the parts so the washer was not needed ? lost in the mists of time.

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553494
07/18/14 9:31 am
07/18/14 9:31 am
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As far as the O-ring goes. I have never taken apart forks that still had one in them. But when was the last time in recent history that someone got to take apart "virgin" 1970 B44VS forks (or other models that ran the same forks). The O-ring I suppose was supposed to help keep the fork seal holder area from weeping oil. As far as I can determine an additional O-ring wouldn't do this well anyway. As Kommando mentioned BSA had earlier recommended using a bit of string around the fork slider where the chrome seals meet at the bottom to help seal from weeping oil. That seems to work. Only one parts manual shows this O-ring, earlier parts manuals for the same forks don't so I wouldn't get too bothered by not having one.

Lastly most vendors don't spend the time pouring over parts manuals figuring out all this obscure stuff. When one asks about a rubber ring in the forks the first thing that comes to mind are the rubber (O shaped) rings that sit on top of the fork springs that are indeed supposed to stop spring chatter. Since no one supplies the lower and obscure O-rings they are simply not in the consciousness of most parts sellers. And even ones that actually tear apart these bikes probably have never encountered them. I suppose one might be able to source them after 20 or so hours of research but the quantities one might need to order to get them would never pay for the sale of a dozen per year.

Peter


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553515
07/18/14 12:14 pm
07/18/14 12:14 pm
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The 69 B44 forks I have taken apart all had the o-ring in place as per this parts diagram #28. The o-ring is #97-2682. I have always been able to order them locally. Without the steel spacer the top bush would just hammer up and down. Without the o-ring the spacer would still be loose and make noise.

What is strange about this parts book page is that the steel spacer #11 is shown upside down.

[Linked Image]



Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553623
07/18/14 10:58 pm
07/18/14 10:58 pm
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Gordo,

I'm probably wrong about availability of these O rings. None of my suppliers stock them but a quick check with McMaster Carr shows that just about any size can be ordered in quantities of 50 or more.

Looking at the diagram they have not just the orientation of #11, the stepped conical spacer upside down but also the location of the O-ring. There is no need of an O ring between the spacer and the oil seal as the oil seal rubber will seal just fine with the conical spacer when tightened down. The O-ring must go between the spacer and the top rim of the fork tube. I believe this would be to help seal the seal area from weeping oil. In other words to picture it just flip over #11 and #28 in the diagram.

I think you are saying that the O-ring is supposed to keep the bush from clacking with the spacer?? If the O-ring sits atop the fork slider it would effectively move the spacer further away from the bush and wouldn't reduce clacking at all. The top of the spacer is held by the fork seal. The only way it could be used to reduce any potential slap between the bush and spacer is if the O ring had the same ID as the fork tube's OD. Look at the bottom edge of the conical spacer in your photo and you will note it is tapered. Definitely not made for a compression fitting with an O-ring. The O-ring would be stretched back up it when tightening things down and would be good for nothing if that is what it was for.

To complicate tings further there are two different designs of the conical tapered spacer. They are of 2 different lengths! I just took apart some 1968 forks and the spacer is shorter and on these models there is no O-ring specified in the parts books. What ever to make of that. I think that BSA just intended folks to use the string for sealing at the bottom of the chrome seal holder at that point. I contend the O-ring it has nothing to do with clacking prevention with either the springs above or between the fork bush and spacer!

Or am I way off base?

Peter


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553629
07/19/14 12:33 am
07/19/14 12:33 am
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Peter: For sure the o-ring is not shown correctly in the parts book, I failed to notice that.

When my spacers bottom out on the top of the bush there remains a small space between the top of the slider and the lip of the spacer. The o-ring is slightly larger than that space and is compressed a little when the seal holder is threaded on. The compressed o-ring should stop the oil from coming out at that point. The actual oil seal edge would be tight to the top of the spacer so oil should not escape above the spacer. I still put string on the threads of the fork slider and have not had any leaks on the forks I have assembled.

This photo shows the gap. With the o-ring there would be no metal to metal contact between the slider and the spacer and thus quiet in the event of any movement. I agree that the spacer is the key to keeping the bush from moving and prevents the clacking.

[Linked Image]


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Peter Quick] #553632
07/19/14 12:53 am
07/19/14 12:53 am
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Hi Peter,

Originally Posted by Peter Quick
when was the last time in recent history that someone got to take apart "virgin" 1970 B44VS forks (or other models that ran the same forks).

But, as Olly the o.p. posted, ...

Originally Posted by Beeza750
1970 A65

Originally Posted by Peter Quick
Only one parts manual shows this O-ring,

Because Olly's bike is an A65, there are several (many if you count Triumph) manuals that show the 'O'-ring.

Originally Posted by Peter Quick
Lastly

One hopes that the last paragraph of your post only follows from your mistake about Olly's bike. Because if it were about A65's in general, it would be worrying - the bike's a common BSA model, the forks were used on several contemporary models so are even more widespread. So a dealer that considered it "obscure" that basic and fundamental differences exist between most '69/'70 models' forks and pre-'69 models' forks, and/or couldn't source a common consumable spare, ... eek

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553652
07/19/14 3:52 am
07/19/14 3:52 am
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...so I'm now back home and I've been out in the shed measuring.
I'm echoing what's been said and apologise to any vendors I may have slightly disparaged.
Bottom line:
There should be a thin O ring that sits in the seal holder groove, none of the main vendors sell it or even know of its existence, there is a metric size that's virtually the same available from hydraulics places. It lines up nicely with the non threaded bit at the top of the slider

The thick O ring and washer stop the bush from moving and no doubt ought to be used. I've ordered them.

It's a strange design as others have said, that relies on accurate threads on the both the seal holder and slider to leave just the right gap at the top so the rubber ring is not loose or not too compressed....and it looks like they maybe got it wrong and added to the thin spacer washer.

Why wouldn't you just clamp the top bush down ???? Weird.


1973 Laverda SF1 750
1970 BSA A65 Thunderbolt (for sale soon)
1970 BSA A65 750 Thunderbolt
2009 Triumph Tiger 1050
...room in the garage for a late Enfield Interceptor
...room in the garage for an old large rigid non-telescopic single

Olly
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553673
07/19/14 6:27 am
07/19/14 6:27 am
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Yes Stuart,

I was certainly sloppy in my first response. The keyboard / brain interface is tricky business sometimes. Looks like 69 & 70 BSAs that didn't run the "Triumph" forks use this O-ring.

I see Triumph forks also list dome sort of O-ring but don't know if it is the same item with a different part number or not. Haven't researched that yet. It certainly doesn't act in concert with the weird tapered spacer as the BSA ones in question.

Why do most of the big vendors and suppliers (at least the ones I've dug into) not carry this "obscure" O-ring? I don't know. Perhaps not enough demand? For most folks there are not enough hours in the day to delve into subjects like this one. We do this for the fun of the chase.

Like so many parts, sourcing them ends up being a DIY affair. On the local shop level if this O-ring is in stock it is either they had a lifetime supply left over from "the day" or just poked around and figured out where to order a similar item, like from McMaster Carr here in the USA. I found some neat square cross section O-rings of the correct size I'm going to order. Should sit and seal better than the round ones.

Peter

Last edited by Peter Quick; 07/19/14 6:32 am.

check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Re: Rubber ring in fork - what for? [Re: Beeza750] #553675
07/19/14 6:35 am
07/19/14 6:35 am
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Hi Olly,

Originally Posted by Beeza750
There should be a thin O ring that sits in the seal holder groove, none of the main vendors sell it or even know of its existence,

1970 T120 parts book, have a look at pages 40/41, is part number 26 what you need? If so, the current Triumph part number is 97-2119 and certainly Tri-Cor England list 'em.

Hth.

Regards,


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