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#541132 - 05/03/14 9:05 pm GP3 issues, help sought  
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stubbicatt R.I.P. Offline
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So I rode the Gold Star about 160 miles or so today, mostly back roads. I think she is a bit lean, so I went from a 310 to a 330 main jet.

While the 310 was in I experimented with adjusting the knurled knob on the right of the GP carburetor. The cleanness of the acceleration at partial throttle settings is greatly dependent on that knob. I"m not sure I have it right yet.

Here is an issue I have had with this thing since day one. I suspect carburetion, as I cannot imagine how timing would work like this, but maybe I am wrong.

No matter the main jet, it doesn't want to pull thru 5,000 rpm without a horrible flat spot there. No matter whether partial throttle or full throttle. I can open the throttle all the way and it stumbles and farts and doesn't want to do anything at that point. If I hold it open, sometimes it will overcome this hesitation, and eventually begin to pull again, which it will do with gusto up to about 6k or 6.25k where I typically shift.

I'm about to pull the plug and look at it, as I suspect it was running pretty lean today. a B7ES plug. I think I may change to a Champion N3 and see if things improve.

ETA the plug looked black all around suggesting richness. Most of the riding was at partial throttle. I installed a Champion N3, and went for a ride. At full throttle at 5k rpm it does the same thing including backfiring for a little bit with the 330 in it, and then it pulls like a tractor. Just I have to hold that throttle open for quite a bit before it responds. It is as though it is starving for fuel then like a passage opens up or something and zoom! Off we go.

I think tomorrow I'll pull the tank and the top off the carburetor and see if something is amiss, like maybe the needle clip came off the needle or something. I have a "rebuild kit" including many gaskets and seals and such. I wonder if it would behove me to replace the seals etc. and see if this improves things.

Ideas? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.

ETA2: Even when not in gear it doesn't like to go past 5k. Like there is an issue there. I haven't adjusted the valves yet, so maybe there is something to be discovered with that. I'll do the valves tomorrow morning and see if that changes anything. I hate to rev it while not under load, but I wanted to verify that it happens even when not under load, which it did, even at partial throttle, as I didn't have to fully open the throttle to get it to go past that 5k point while in neutral. Seems like it ought to rev freely throughout the power band.

I am beginning to wonder if there is something in the bottom end that isn't right. Maybe the cams are not set correctly, maybe the crank assembly is jacked or something?

Last edited by stubbicatt; 05/03/14 9:55 pm.

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#541149 - 05/03/14 11:49 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Kerry W Offline
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Middle East,
B y all means check the valve clearances, so then you'll know, but I'd be surprised if they were off.

If the motor doesn't vibrate excessively, chances are the bottom end is OK too.

I'd also be surprised if cam timing was an issue, but it's a comparatively quick and easy check.

Do check the needle clip, but it probably wouldn't pick up (which it seems to) if the needle had fallen in.

What sort of float chamber are you using? Is it mounted rigidly to the bottom of the carb body, with internal (integral) fuel passages? Or is it remotely mounted, hung by an adjustable rod from the top of the float chamber with flexible fuel lines into the top of the float chamber and out the bottom to the carb body? If it's the remote type, is it round or square shaped?

The symptoms you describe are classic 'megaphonitis' (albeit at about 1000rpm higher than I'd expect), though I seem to recall you have a standard 'silencer'?

My initial suspicions relate to fuel delivery - either too much or too little. Too much might be the megaphonitis slant, where the inlet gas goes past the needle 3 times and gets rich in the process; one reason why the 'weaker' 3GP6 needle works on an open exhaust but is a bit lean with a street pipe.

The other thought, and perhaps more probable, might be that if you have a remote float chamber, it might be wobbling around a lot at a particular rpm, affecting mixture at that point. Usual fix for that is to securely zip-tie the fuel lines to the carb to (usually) the frame rails to add support to the float bowl.

Get out in the middle of nowhere, take some tools with you, wait a little bit (it's hot!) and take the silencer off (keep your gloves on!) and try the bike before doing anything else. Just use the short, plain front header pipe, unless you have a short piece of pipe that you could slip on to make the total length 37" around the outside of the bends.


Last edited by Kerry W; 05/03/14 11:55 pm. Reason: typos..

No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541181 - 05/04/14 7:45 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Thanks Kerry W.

It has the "Matchbox" type remote float, which I have zip tied to the frame on one hose length, not the other. I can put a zip tie on the other fuel line as well I suppose just to make sure. The fuel hoses to the float chamber are flexible, but the one from the chamber to the bottom inlet of the carb is pretty stiff, and old. I had thought to replace it, as I have some of that fuel line, but I'd need to get some ferrules and a crimping tool to accomplish this, and near as I can tell length on that stretch of hose is critical, as if it is too short or too long, it will cock the float bowl, and might mess things up.

I noticed when installing the magdyno that the header pipe extends into the muffler an easy 6 to 8 inches or more. Other bikes I've worked on, the header terminates pretty much at the inlet to the muffler/silencer, not this one. I remember wondering why they would have so much more header to go into the muffler than they needed like that? Not like the penurious British motorcycle industry to waste 6 or 8 inches of exhaust pipe... My thought at the time was perhaps it was a "race bike exhaust" setup, that an owner could use at the track, and then replace the so-called "silencer" (amplifier, more like it) to ride home. The issue with this theory is that there is no provision for hanging the rear of the exhaust pipe from the frame anywhere, that task is taken up by the silencer mount at the passenger foot peg.

I could take the silencer off and measure the header pipe I suppose. If it is too long, out comes the Dremel, and lop off the excess.

Last edited by stubbicatt; 05/04/14 7:59 am.

Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541211 - 05/04/14 12:08 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Kerry W Offline
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Middle East,
I must have a dig through my books, but I do recall, years ago, seeing a mention of a large overlap between the length of the herder pipe and the silencer, and about how it was advantageous to performance.

Tie that other fuel line, ignore the fuel line between the flat chamber and carb, check the fuel level against the top of the 'circle' on the left side of the GP body (a critical adjustment), make sure the needle hasn't fallen through the clip and try the bike with no silencer - it will wobble about a bot, with no extension to allow clamping to the passenger peg mount, but it'll immediately tell you if the silencer is having any adverse effect. Without the extension or a megaphone it will probably sound a touch flat. With a straight pipe it of 37" it would sound quite crisp, as it would with a 53" pipe (Scrambles spec - the same cam serves scrabble and clubmans/racing), though the megaphone will immediately let you know it's there, especially on the over-run If it doesn't sound shape on an open mega, with a pipe that is even close to the correct length, it's a am issue!

Let us know!


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541222 - 05/04/14 1:43 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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DBDBrian Online content
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Stubbi, the fuel level should be at the bottom of the circle on the air jet plug,( Kerry must have been on the veno again)
All the road front pipes I have seen just enter the clamp on the silencer. most of the repro silencers have a perforated tube right through. I had an old genuine BSA one which I cut up, but the centre tube had rusted completely away, so I did not gain any useful information. So I made my own silencer, as pure the bottom drawing.
Do you have an AMAL GP tuning instruction brochure?
Brian




Brian

Made In England
#541227 - 05/04/14 2:08 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Doh...bottom of the circle..that would be right...vino might be close to the truth! Thanks Brian...


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541230 - 05/04/14 2:26 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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DBDBrian Online content
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I will be making a start shortly


Brian

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#541237 - 05/04/14 3:15 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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While you are at it, check your ht pickup and mag slip ring, it could be arcing at high revs.

Rob C

#541256 - 05/04/14 4:03 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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robcurrie, how does one check the ht pickup and slip ring? The magneto was rebuilt less than 600 miles, more like 500 miles ago. The bike exhibited this same exact behavior prior to rebuild, in exactly the same rev range. I am certainly willing to check it out, if you will tell me how.

Because the behavior hasn't changed, and the major component of the magneto HAS changed, I tend to suspect a different cause. I am the first to admit that my suspicions could be misplaced. smile

DBDBrian, I have looked thru the muffler, and you can see light all the way through. The muffler looks like the one on the bottom of that illustration, at least from the outside. The clamp portion of the silencer is larger than the outer diameter of the header pipe, and doesn't exactly *seal* that juncture. I could try to snug the bolt up tighter if this might be a cause of the issue but it doesn't look like it will snug up any more. Nonetheless, I can work on it if it is important.

Here are two photos of the float and carb, one from port one from starboard side. I cannot be certain, but it looks to me like the line on the float bowl needs to come down quite a ways to be at the bottom of that bolt/plug on the inboard/port side of the carburetor.





If KerryW and DBDBrian are right, the float bowl would need to come down about to three eights of an inch. If it were lowered, would that tend to lean things out, right? It doesn't maybe look like it, but that line on the outside of the float bowl is about centered up with the bolt/plug on the inboard of the carburetor.

I am sorely tempted to drop the float chamber. Reason is, that whenever I adjust that knurled knob, diametrically opposed to the bolt/plug illustrated in the first photograph, gasoline will come out that knob, which tells me that the fuel level is about even with that orifice. I don't think it is supposed to do that.

Last edited by stubbicatt; 05/04/14 4:16 pm.

Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541281 - 05/04/14 6:19 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Stubbi, to check the level accurately it is best to use a transparent tube on the float chamber outlet, which will indicate the exact level in the chamber, as the level line can't always be relied on.
If fuel is running out of of the bleed hole, under the fuel metering needle on the knurled adjuster, it would indicate the level is to high, assuming the float valve is not leaking.
Would you like a copy of the AMAL GP tuning instructions, which cover all these points.
Brian


Brian

Made In England
#541293 - 05/04/14 8:36 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Could it be the float needle sticking either open, or shut? AFAIK the needle is a 1958 needle. Would a "Viton" needle be a good idea, and if so, how do I get it in there?

Thanks.

PS Yes, DBDBrian that manual could only help. Thank you.

Last edited by stubbicatt; 05/04/14 8:37 pm.

Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541317 - 05/04/14 11:56 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Kerry W Offline
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If the float is shutting off the fuel supply to the bowl, I'd say the needle wasn't worth worrying about. And that the float wasn't leaking.


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541332 - 05/05/14 3:13 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Kerry W Offline
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While you're there with the clear tube, check the actual fuel level against the cast-in line on the float chamber, just to see how accurate it is. The matchbox float, like yours, on my Velo was actually pretty close to the real level, which was a pleasant surprise.


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541409 - 05/05/14 12:28 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Sort of came to me with a shudder of dread, what about valve float? What if the valve springs have taken a set over the years, and as a result it bogs down at 5k RPM? Could that happen?


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#541422 - 05/05/14 2:21 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Kerry W Offline
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Nope. Unless there's some truly weird harmonic.

Last edited by Kerry W; 05/05/14 2:21 pm.

No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
#541429 - 05/05/14 3:43 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Thanks guys. Thanks DBDBrian for the manual. I would be lost without you.


Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541480 - 05/05/14 11:42 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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I second that!
Thanks Brian bigt

Jerry Roy

#541483 - 05/06/14 12:23 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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robcurrie Online content
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Originally Posted By: stubbicatt
robcurrie, how does one check the ht pickup and slip ring? The magneto was rebuilt less than 600 miles, more like 500 miles ago. The bike exhibited this same exact behavior prior to rebuild, in exactly the same rev range. I am certainly willing to check it out, if you will tell me how.

Because the behavior hasn't changed, and the major component of the magneto HAS changed, I tend to suspect a different cause. I am the first to admit that my suspicions could be misplaced.


If the behavior hasn't changed, then you are probably right that it's not magneto related. To check my bike's magneto slipring, I removed the pickup and managed to get my camera phone lens lined up with the opening and took a number of pics of the slip ring in various positions. These revealed a couple of problems; there was a piece of broken off brush lying in the housing, the slip ring of the allegedly newly rebuilt mag was badly grooved, it had tracking from the edge of the brass ring, the surface was wavy, and the flanges were chipped. It was getting difficult to start and would backfire occasionally at high revs.

Rob C

PS: Did you change the points after the mag rebuild? If not, could it be a tired spring causing the points to 'float'?

Last edited by robcurrie; 05/06/14 12:31 am. Reason: added PS
#541535 - 05/06/14 9:52 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: robcurrie]  
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stubbicatt R.I.P. Offline
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Originally Posted By: robcurrie
Originally Posted By: stubbicatt
robcurrie, how does one check the ht pickup and slip ring? The magneto was rebuilt less than 600 miles, more like 500 miles ago. The bike exhibited this same exact behavior prior to rebuild, in exactly the same rev range. I am certainly willing to check it out, if you will tell me how.

Because the behavior hasn't changed, and the major component of the magneto HAS changed, I tend to suspect a different cause. I am the first to admit that my suspicions could be misplaced.


If the behavior hasn't changed, then you are probably right that it's not magneto related. To check my bike's magneto slipring, I removed the pickup and managed to get my camera phone lens lined up with the opening and took a number of pics of the slip ring in various positions. These revealed a couple of problems; there was a piece of broken off brush lying in the housing, the slip ring of the allegedly newly rebuilt mag was badly grooved, it had tracking from the edge of the brass ring, the surface was wavy, and the flanges were chipped. It was getting difficult to start and would backfire occasionally at high revs.

Rob C

PS: Did you change the points after the mag rebuild? If not, could it be a tired spring causing the points to 'float'?


Yes the points that were sent back with the magneto were so worn they would not close. I installed brand new Lucas points. (Not really happy with being sent points that would not close when properly adjusted gap!)

Last edited by stubbicatt; 05/06/14 11:13 pm.

Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541606 - 05/06/14 8:15 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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So, it got much worse. Backfirng thru the exhaust, thru the carb. I put it up for the day, and upon getting home from work, started at the top. I examined the points. Somehow, the points gap had shrunk from .012 to something very small. I opened them up to .012 and the old beast fired up and ran with great enthusiasm, no more backfiring. However, it still has that gawdawful stumble at 5k. I wonder, if the timing were retarded would it behave like that?

Also, I wonder, what would cause the points to close up like that?


Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#541647 - 05/07/14 12:50 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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robcurrie Online content
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Stubbicatt, do you have a long, steep road you can test on? Check if you get the stumble at say 5000 in 3rd uphill and downhill. If you only get it uphill, it could be fuel starvation. Check fuel system: breather in tank cap, fuel taps, filters.
You could also try the test with only one tap open, and then both.

Rob C

#541658 - 05/07/14 3:41 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Ron - in California R.I.P. Offline
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OK, you mention you have a Magdyno.. one of the poor design elements is the way the points work.. the armature end play is critical.. and there are very thin brass shims to adjust the end play. To make things worse, the bearing outer races use thick paper to hold them in. So it is possible the end play increased once the unit was installed and run. If the end play is excessive then this affects the points gap.

To check for end play you need to push on the drive end and check the point gap, if it increases then you need to reshim the mag end plate (remove one shim and recheck). Then of course reset the points gap. Obviously check the Mag slip ring, etc as well.. but not likely that would cause a 5K issue only.. Oh yes, check the paper cups under the bearing races.. I have no experience with repop paper cups, but even the original ones could get damaged during installation or use, or if the fit to the case is not correct.

It is not the valve adjustment.. tight valves would cause hard starting and poor or no low speed running, not a high RPM miss.

Harmonics.. OK this can mean several things.. Harmonics can affect the carburetion, they can cause any excessive Mag end float to go funny just at that RPM range as well. Too tired to think of other issues.. but one of those is the most likely issue.

#541673 - 05/07/14 7:10 am Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Thanks guys. I'm NOT giving up.


Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#542888 - 05/13/14 12:13 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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Ok. Now the dead spot has moved to about 6200 rpm, which, in all is ok. I'm going to put a small drop of oil on the shaft of the points tappet, and some points grease on the face cam and see if that doesn't help clear things up.


Hate is a poison which one consumes hoping for another to die.
#542890 - 05/13/14 12:29 pm Re: GP3 issues, help sought [Re: stubbicatt R.I.P.]  
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That's good news, but what caused the change? 6200 is a lot more liveable, but still anoying..


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
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