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#526640 - 02/05/14 9:48 pm "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes  
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Cloggy Offline
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Has anyone tried the TRISUPPLY "reaming not required" camshaft bushes ?, do they work.

Also saw some LF Harris ones described as pre line bored, anyone ?


1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1939 Ariel VH Redhunter;1970 B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single
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#526668 - 02/06/14 3:21 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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Bob G Offline
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They might work, but I would be skeptical How can bushings be pre-aligned bored? The is a process that is used to insure alignment once the cases are assembled.

If someone makes bushings that don't need enlargement, then the bushing to cam clearance needs to be large enough to compensate for case misalignment and for the bushing holes not being square. This exta clearance might result in a sloppy fit.


Bob Gregor
#526683 - 02/06/14 6:27 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Bob G]  
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Cloggy Offline
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My thoughts were the same, that's why I was interested to see whether anyone had used them.

Re alignment the Hugie Hancox DVD apparently shows him fitting the driveside bushed with an old cam. I take it the principle here is that the cam journal stops the bush crushing inwards when it is pressed in..but again unless it is reamed how do you know it is inline and correct clearance. This chap worked at Triumph building engines for donkeys years so you would have thought he knew his stuff so maybe the line reaming is not that critical ?


1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1939 Ariel VH Redhunter;1970 B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t
#526687 - 02/06/14 7:00 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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NickL Online content
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I am going to stick my neck out here and say it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I never reamed Triumph cam bushes!
I don't think the factory did either as they were sintered bronze.
When i replaced them in my road Bonnie they came out good without reaming, the cams turned freely so i left them at that.


(On my race bike they got replaced by needle rollers anyway)

Nick



#526690 - 02/06/14 8:00 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: NickL]  
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Originally Posted By: NickL
I am going to stick my neck out here and say it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I never reamed Triumph cam bushes!
I don't think the factory did either as they were sintered bronze.
When i replaced them in my road Bonnie they came out good without reaming, the cams turned freely so i left them at that.


(On my race bike they got replaced by needle rollers anyway)

Nick


From what I understand sintered bronze can be reamed but will close the bores in the metal and ruin self lubricating properties. Since engines have a splash oil supply this shouldn't be a problem.
It would seem if you replace the bushings, assemble the cases and the cams spin easy, you're good to go. It's possible bushings are often distorted when installed and need reaming...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#526703 - 02/06/14 9:33 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Bob G]  
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TR6Ray Online content
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Originally Posted By: Bob G
. . . I would be skeptical How can bushings be pre-aligned bored? The is a process that is used to insure alignment once the cases are assembled.

If someone makes bushings that don't need enlargement, then the bushing to cam clearance needs to be large enough to compensate for case misalignment and for the bushing holes not being square. This exta clearance might result in a sloppy fit.
By definition, this is impossible. Selling pre-align bored bushings would be like selling pre-lit cigarettes -- lots of smoke involved, and the product won't last long.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#526709 - 02/06/14 10:34 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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John Healy Online content
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Replacing the sintered bushings with needles requires the cam bearing surfaces be hardened to Rockwell 60 (on the C scale). Duane Taylor, who produced the 6&9 series cams in the 1960's would supply cams for needles. The bearing surfaces had to be spray welded with hard facing metal and ground to suit. IMHO all this falls into a case of Mental Masturbation.

There are a number of companies making cam bushings today. Some are the traditional sintered bronze, while others offer bushings made from solid bronze.

There are the bushings supplied where the bushing you need is somewhere inside the hunk of metal supplied - your left to remove what you don't need (or as they say, some fettling required). Length is one constant problem, but i.d. and o.d. can also be out of spec.. Other offerings where they all ready exceed the manufacturer's specified clearances out of the package. You must check the bushing for sizing, especially length, before offering it to the case.

There are those who try to be clever and pre-size the bushing so when it crushes, and it will crush when you install it, the installed i.d. should give you the proper clearance. But they seem never to be able to hold the tolerances and have no control over how the bushing is installed. So you often end up with an installed bushing that is at, or over, the specified clearance, and because of how it was installed, a camshaft that will not turn when the cases are put together.

The cam bushes supplied by the Triumph parts department as spares had the correct o.d. and length, but required sizing once installed! They also supplied a reamer under part number Z55 and Z56 to size the left side bushes. As the timing side bushes, supplied by Triumph, always installed with an undersized i.d., they supplied dealers with a 7/8" ball which was used to size the bushing.

People often question the use of sintered bronze for the cam bushings, but it is the right product for the application. IMHO solid bronze is NOT! The nature of sintered bronze is it is self healing. How many times have I seen solid bronze bushing seized to the camshaft and spinning in the crankcase...

Installing these bushings should be an easy job, but I am here to say that a lot of people need more practice!
John


#526786 - 02/06/14 6:55 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: John Healy]  
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
Replacing the sintered bushings with needles requires the cam bearing surfaces be hardened to Rockwell 60 (on the C scale). Duane Taylor, who produced the 6&9 series cams in the 1960's would supply cams for needles. The bearing surfaces had to be spray welded with hard facing metal and ground to suit. IMHO all this falls into a case of Mental Masturbation.


John


Absolutely,,,, I wondered if i'd get a bite on this one???

Although i bought a bottom end years ago that had needles crank and cams in it, the cams had been ground down and needle inner sleeves fitted, a load of work for nothing eh? still, i used them for a while and they were ok.

Reaming sintered bronze is bad news, you may as well use LB to start with.

Nick



#526789 - 02/06/14 7:08 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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John Healy Online content
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Nick, I always heard the bit about reaming sintered bronze, but heat one up that has been reamed and check the inside surface of the bearing...

John


#526795 - 02/06/14 7:16 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: NickL]  
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Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Reaming is OK if you use a sharp reamer.A blunt reamer will smear the surface and seal the porosity.

#526797 - 02/06/14 7:27 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: John Healy]  
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NickL Online content
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Originally Posted By: John Healy
Nick, I always heard the bit about reaming sintered bronze, but heat one up that has been reamed and check the inside surface of the bearing...

John


C'mon John enlighten me........

Nick



#526798 - 02/06/14 7:30 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.]  
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
Reaming is OK if you use a sharp reamer.A blunt reamer will smear the surface and seal the porosity.


That makes sense, although i thought a sharp one would chatter like mad.

nick



#526810 - 02/06/14 8:45 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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Tridentman Online content
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I was taught exactly as Pete R says--use a very sharp reamer to make sure that you cut through the sintered material rather than just bending the metal into the pores and eliminating the oil bearing porosity.

#526815 - 02/06/14 9:28 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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GrandPaul Online content
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Wouldn't the speed of the boring machine be a factor as well?


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
#526821 - 02/06/14 11:35 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: GrandPaul]  
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I had to press into place then machine the ID to size a new sintered Oilite bushing for the worn one in the lathe I bought a few years ago. I decide the advice Oilite themselves gives was as good as any to follow...

http://www.oilite.com/bmp.asp

Best Machining Practices

There are a few basic machining practices required to optimize retaining surface micro-porosity and the self lubricating properties of Oilite® bearing materials.

Cutting tools must be sharp. For this reason, carbide inserts are highly recommended since they hold a cutting edge much longer. This preserves the open-pore structure from which oil can flow freely. A dull tool will smear the pores, greatly reducing the self-lubricating qualities of the material.

Turning: Cutting Feed Rate: 0.002-0.006 IPM
Speed: Oilite® Bronze 375-500 SFM
Speed: Super-Oilite® 250-500 SFM

Roller Burnishing is an excellent choice to modify an ID slightly. Ball sizing can also be used on the ID effectively for final sizing.

Honing and grinding are never recommended on Oilite® bearing materials. Using these methods on any surface which will become the bearing surface will introduce grinding media and could easily smear the bronze pores sealing the micro-porosity.

After extensive machining, bearings should be re-impregnated with appropriate / specified oils. Vacuumed impregnation is recommended. If bearings were not lubricated prior to machining and if cutting fluids were used, that medium must be removed prior to any impregnation of the oil selected for the application. Your authorized distributor can provide oils for re-impregnation after machining.

#526847 - 02/07/14 8:18 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Magnetoman]  
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Why are self lubricating properties necessary for a bearing being splash oiled by sump spray? Normally Oil Lite bronze is used in applications of no regular lubrication, like an electric motor bearing...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#526860 - 02/07/14 9:54 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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John Healy Online content
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I guess HB, because of all of the engines I have seen, where the solid bronze bush is welded to the camshaft and spinning in the crankcase, our little Triumph engine's splash lubrication just doesn't seem to be enough for the load of the valve springs.

We run into the same problem when Vincent owners scorn the lowly sintered bronze bushing for what they have read, and now staunchly believe, is a superior material for the cam bushes. And please note, these bushes are fed a constant flow of oil through the cam spindle. How many have had to make expensive repairs to their cam chest when superior solid bronze bushing seizes to the shaft and spins in the case.

I remember one such customer/friend, the late Ken Bell (Bell Engineering in MD.) We had this discussion (although with Ken this would have verged on being an argument).

I lost, well not in the end, as he installed a set of solid bronze bushings in his camshafts. He wasn't to be denied the "Truth": Solid Bronze bearing material was far superior to the lowly sintered bronze. Well, his cam seized to the spindle. And as it is with a Vincent, the cam spindle, which is held in place by a captured nut, has no where to go as the spinning spindle unthreads from the nut, gets pushed farther and farther into the engine.

Ken was a clever lad, an ex-Federal Marshal, and stubbornly held onto his ideas. The cam spindles on Vincents have always been problematic and sit in a hole that opens directly in an area where the bottom of the cylinder sleeve resides. The end of a standard spindle lies about the depth of the retaining nut away from the cylinder sleeve. But Ken had a better idea. He would make a spindle that extended to the bottom of the hole almost touching the cylinder sleeve. Thus he thought the spindle would have more support... We had better bearings and a better spindle. We are good to go, but were we?

But what Ken had done was to create his own "perfect storm." When the better bushing seized to the shaft, and the better spindle unthreaded from the captured nut, it drove the spindle right into the base of the cylinder sleeve - some 3/8 of an inch. Remember the stock spindle was shorter, and would never have done this.

Ken survived the ensuing crash with a bit of road rash, and a bruised ego...
The moral of all this could be: When you don't know any better, sometimes "better is good's worst enemy."


#526878 - 02/07/14 11:34 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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I'm not sure what material is used on BSA cam bushes and idler gear bushes. However I had at one point fitted a different timing case to my motor and hadn't reamed the bushes to suit. I never noticed the damage until 1000 miles later when I took the inner timing cover off. The bush in the timing cover had seized onto the idler pinion spindle and spun in the case, thankfully it hadn't done too much damage to the case. I replaced both bushes and reemed them in line. From memory the new pinion was .0015 smaller than the 11/16 reamer. It had since done about 3000 miles and a lot of that in anger with no damaged caused.

I often wonder though. The Japanese fitted cams etc directly into the alloy, and wrist pins directly into rods, why didn't the Brit bike companies do this? Surely they weren't thinking about anyone fitting replacement components 40 years later!


beerchug
#526881 - 02/07/14 11:45 am Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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There used in the "good old days" to be a BSA Group company called "BSA Sintered Metals" or "BSA Powered Metals"--cant remember which.
They were one of the leaders in this field in UK--and in the world.
Not surprising if BSA Motorcycles used their products in our bike engines.
Incidentally the talk at the time (early 1970s) was that Manganese Bronze (the Dennis Poore company) wanted to buy the BSA group primarily for the sintered metals business to go along with the "manganese bronze" business that gave his group its name.
The rumor at the time was that the motorcycle aspect was just a necessary price for Poore to pay to get the sintered metals business.
Just dredging the old memory cells!

#526895 - 02/07/14 1:45 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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Allan, you are right about the Japanese running cams directly in the aluminum alloy heads, but using clean oil and high oil pressure to make it all work.

The problem came when the oil didn't get changed when needed and wear increased. This is what killed most Honda 450cc twins.
Then Honda set the price of new heads so high it was not cost effective to repair those bikes, and that is why they are not often seen today.

I worked for two Honda dealerships in the late 1970s, and saw this. The philosophy of the Japanese was to sell new motorcycles, not do heavy repairs on older ones, because the goal was to keep Japan's production lines running.

#526896 - 02/07/14 1:49 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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John Healy Online content
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Quote:
The Japanese fitted cams etc directly into the alloy, and wrist pins directly into rods, why didn't the Brit bike companies do this?


Allen, they did. Triumph 500 cams run on on the crankcase aluminum as did the pin in a lot of connecting rods. Aluminum works well in these applications.


#526906 - 02/07/14 3:30 pm Re: "Reaming not required" camshaft bushes [Re: Cloggy]  
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kommando Online content
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A silicon alloyed Aluminium is a good bearing material, not as good as Aluminium/Tin but pistons are silicon alloyed aluminum and run well in cast iron bores.


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