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#521816 - 01/07/14 2:25 am T140 fork Flex under brakes  
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Michael Offline
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I have been building a t120 with a t140 disc brake front end and seems there is a fair bit of Flex under brakes toward the frame, is this normal? The steering head is tight just where the sliders and fork sanctions are is the issue, it's all pretty new to me and I'm learning as I go so may be a straight forward answer?


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
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#521827 - 01/07/14 6:08 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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what frame?
Standard yokes?
One disc or two?


The OIF shouldn't flex and I doubt the non OIF should either.
One disc stops my T140 quickly enough for road use.

#521831 - 01/07/14 8:21 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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Fork lower(s) probably worn. Seems from what research I've done that replacement is the only option.

#521860 - 01/07/14 11:44 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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Hi Michael,

Originally Posted By: Michael
there is a fair bit of Flex under brakes toward the frame,
just where the sliders and fork sanctions are is the issue,
is this normal?

'Fraid so. cry It's true of any of the '71-on forks, but seems to show up more with a disc brake. frown If you look at the fork parts, the slider is attached to the bottom end of the damper rod but the only things centralising the slider around the stanchion are the fork seal and (as standard) the rubber 'O'-ring around the top of the damper! eek So not a lot, especially given the braking force is being applied to the slider at the other end! frown

In a previous thread on the same subject some time ago, iirc Dave Madigan proposed a bush on the end of the stanchion running inside the slider but whether he progressed this I don't know; he might chime in on this thread.

Just as a matter of interest, are you using the standard 'O'-ring between the damper and the stanchion, and are you using the early '3 hoops' or the later brace between the sliders?

Ime:-

. The later brace between the sliders is preferable to the earlier arrangement - it doesn't stop the angular movement between slider and stanchion but it does keep the sliders moving up and down together. bigt

. Some years ago, Progressive Suspension offered a replacement for the damper 'O'-ring - in a phenolic resin iirc - that cut the standard 'O'-ring stiction noticeably. I believe Progressive don't offer that any more (you could check) but someone else (L.P. Williams in GB?) does, or something very similar. Unfortunately, I'm away from home 'til at least early next week.

. The later ('78-on) 'super' (aka 'leakproof') seals resist the depredations of slider/stanchion movement substantially longer than the pre-'78 type. Depending whether your bike's sliders have the circlip groove inside the top is whether the seals are retained by '78/'79 interference-fit steel washers or '80-on looser steel washers and circlips. I also use the thin 'Commando-type' neoprene gaiters and proper fork oil rather than the originally-recommended ATF.

Hth.

Regards,

#521866 - 01/07/14 12:58 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Stuart]  
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Stuart, I'm having a hard time understanding what O rings or seals have to do with for flex? The issue is the slider and or fork tube flexing back under braking forces. And when braking violently the fork compress so the area of contact between the slider and tube increases and theoretically the slider is better supported.
Small diameter fork tubes will flex...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#521890 - 01/07/14 3:21 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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Quote:
Stuart, I'm having a hard time understanding what O rings or seals have to do with for flex?


Reading Stuarts thread he is asking for details of the O ring to identify the variant of the OIF fork, and the seals are part of the solution the factory applied ie by fitted better seals plus gaitors the wear is much reduced.

If your fork lowers are already worn of course it does not fix them, but you know which replacements will last longer and you can fit better gaitors to further reduce the wear.

#521905 - 01/07/14 5:01 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: AngloBike]  
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AngloBike
The frame is a 1968 duplex I think, I know it is 1968, the entire front end is a T140 single disc and all standard as far as I know, I have pulled them apart a little while ago as they were seized but didn't replace anything. I'll try and add some photos to articulate as soon as I work it out in regards the flex.


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#521912 - 01/07/14 5:26 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Stuart]  
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Stuart, I see what you mean there is very little keeping it in place, Ill replace the o ring, the seals are new and are the "leak proof" ones, I'll try the brace but haven't taken it for a spin yet to see what its like, just waiting on parts to finish the project, ie; ignition (pazon 12v), coils, ect...

I don't know if the ignition is good or not but the reviews say they're ok as long as I use 2 x 6v coils.


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#521925 - 01/07/14 5:57 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: Hillbilly bike
I'm having a hard time understanding what O rings or seals have to do with for flex? The issue is the slider and or fork tube flexing back under braking forces.

They don't.

What Michael is seeing is the vertical line of the slider differ from the vertical line of the stanchion, such that the bottom of the slider moves backwards under braking. He is interpreting this as 'flex' when it is in fact simply separate parts moving relative to one another.

Originally Posted By: Hillbilly bike
when braking violently the fork compress so the area of contact between the slider and tube increases and theoretically the slider is better supported.

Mmmm ... moot point. When my T160's had single front discs, I could grab a big handful of front brake momentarily then release it; the suspension wouldn't have much time to react but the left slider would twist the wheel quite violently. Btw, now they have twin front discs, the front wheel simply moves straight backwards. smile

It's possible that, if hard braking were held for several seconds, so the stanchions were pushed down into the sliders, that the line of the sliders would once again parallel the line of the stanchions, but I've never been able to hang off the bike that long while just watching the forks. smile

Originally Posted By: Hillbilly bike
Small diameter fork tubes will flex...

If you mean the stanchions, they're not really "Small diameter". They're a gnats under 35mm o.d., a diameter common on Japanese bikes for decades, including middleweights today, and there isn't any major collective opinion that says they flex.

Otoh, take the sliders off a '71-on Triumph/BSA fork and you can waggle the damper tube ends about over a fair distance; simply attaching a damper tube end to one end of an alloy slider that, at its other end is located by nothing more than a flexible seal can't change this?

Otoh2, if by "Small diameter", you mean the damper tube, if that's flexing under braking, the slider will move even more relative to the stanchion. frown

Hth.

Regards,

#521933 - 01/07/14 6:34 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Stuart]  
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Stuart your spot on, the sliders aren't flexing and the sanctions aren't flexing, it's the lower fork not being Parallel to the upper fork under braking, btw it's just me pushing the bike back and forth and observing this, so I assume under "real breaking" it will be much worse, there is about 5mm movement rearwards when pushing the forks down and forward with my weight (100kg) at the axle. However there seems to be no slack when the front end is off the ground and giving it a bit of a wriggle.


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#521937 - 01/07/14 7:00 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Stuart]  
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Stanchions are tubes as us hot rod bikers call them grin

Does a Triumph front end flex? Straddle the front wheel ,grab the handle bars and forcefully move them right and left...The front end twists quite a bit...something is flexing ,tubes twisting in the yokes and a little wheel twist. And yes, everything is torqued properly. And that's the same effect from hard braking . Next to the Triumph is my 1000 Moto Guzzi café racer with 35 MM stanchions. Do the same wiggle and it's like a rock. Nothing moves because of the clamping of the beefy yokes, possibly better stanchion steel and more rigid wheel assembly. I suspect 70's Japanese machine will flex like a Triumph.
The flex doesn't seem to hurt the Triumph handling .But when braking hard it twists and creates more fork slider friction. I would bet if you replaced the Meriden front end with a more robust front end the difference would be quite noticeable.


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#521955 - 01/07/14 8:45 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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I suspected that putting the disc brake front end on the Daytona was only going to get me the performance of a typical '70s/'80s machine with 35mm forks, and figured on adding a fork brace for the flex and cartridge emulators for the damping. I've heard that the Hyde brace can damage the top end of the sliders where it clamps to them and so am planning to double the thickness of the fender mount instead. I did this on one of my Hondas and it worked well. In researching the cartridge emulator thing, I contacted Matt Wiley, who is the vintage bike specialist at Race Tech. He sent me complete instructions with the recommendation that I replace the o-ring damper seals with Race Tech piston rings - not cheap at $20 each but it's a bit late in this project to start worrying about cost! Fork flex under braking for me is less apparent than the flex induced wobble when hitting bumps leaned over.

Happy New Year
Alan


'71 T100 Daytona
#521988 - 01/08/14 12:24 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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The modification that I was looking at was to add a bush to the bottom end of the stanchion and another to the top of the slider to reduce the sticktion. The problem is when under load the stanchion is being bent above the slider and is forced to straighten inside the slider. Instead of the contact points being the top of the slider and the bottom of the stanchion it is the top of the stanchion and a point on the opposite side slightly below the top. All the load is put in the top of the slider. The older Triumph/BSA forks had an upper bush in the slider and a bush on the lower end of the stanchion and these worked better. The Hinckley Triumphs and Ohlins are also made this away.

Stuart, I am not sure what you mean by 'centralizing the slider around the stanchion', maintaining concentricity? The seal and damper rod have little to do with that. Both are too flexible. The stanchion is 1.360" diameter and a (fairly) new slider is 1.365" bore. The bottom of the stanchion is 4.8" below the top of the slider bore. The axle is 11.7" from the top of the slider bore so on a new fork the axle can move +/-0.012" just from the clearance. Mounting the stanchion in the lathe chuck at the lower triple clamp location, I can easily deflect the end by 0.010" just with finger pressure. The tyre contact is another 13" away from the axle so you can see the deflection goes up pretty quick. Add to that the slop in the headstock bearings. Adding the bushes would at least reduce the clearances and sticktion.

I thought whether it would be worthwhile to build 38mm forks for the OIFs/triples. Although there are already a few around (Ceriani, Marzzocchi) they do not look like the stock fork. 38mm is the maximum allowed in ARHMA but they also whine if it does not look original. Possibly using RG500 stanchions and dampers with original look sliders and triple clamps (dual disc mounts, of course)?

#522001 - 01/08/14 7:06 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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As you say you have a 68 frame and a "complete" T140 front end I assume that you have Trident yokes?
otherwise the T140 'complete" front end won't fit

#522011 - 01/08/14 9:28 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: AngloBike]  
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Originally Posted By: AngloBike
As you say you have a 68 frame and a "complete" T140 front end I assume that you have Trident yokes?
otherwise the T140 'complete" front end won't fit


I built a 69 frame with an OIF front end. Conversion roller bearing kits are available for about 50 bucks. Disc brake yokes space the stanchions about 3/4 of an inch wider than drum brake OIF yokes


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#522013 - 01/08/14 9:47 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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yeas but I understood the OIF neck is shorter, so the stem won't fit the 68 and you'd need to fit a Trident T150 yoke.

so it's either that or another workaround.
Either way, it's not a complete T140 front end

Last edited by AngloBike; 01/08/14 9:52 am.
#522022 - 01/08/14 10:51 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: AngloBike]  
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Maybe, but here's the proof from a bike I built for a customer. Yes,it's my ugliness on the machine and it's a bobber but the frame is not cut. OIF front fork assembly on single down tube 60's Triumph frame.







650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#522031 - 01/08/14 12:17 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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The situation with using T-140 fronts on older frames pertaining to the T-150 steering stem is this: Can you just bolt on the T140 parts? Yes you can, BUT you have about HALF of the thread engagement on the top nut! I put a T140 front on my A75 and wasn't about to use the standard stem after seeing this. I used a late T150 lower with the correct length stem, Not worth the risk imo to save a few bucks and possibly have the threads strip and your front end go loose!
Don R.


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
#522032 - 01/08/14 12:22 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: AngloBike]  
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: DMadigan
I am not sure what you mean by 'centralizing the slider around the stanchion', maintaining concentricity? The seal and damper rod have little to do with that. Both are too flexible.

Sorry, it's once again written English doesn't convey tone; that was tongue-in-cheek, as in, "the seal and damper 'O'-ring can't maintain concentricity between slider and stanchion" especially against a lateral force applied at the distances you've so clearly quoted. smile

Originally Posted By: AngloBike
68 frame and a "complete" T140 front end I assume that you have Trident yokes?
otherwise the T140 'complete" front end won't fit

It will, just the stem top nut only has a few threads to grab; a T150 yoke is just easier with a 'dry' frame, because the stem is the same length as the 'dry' frame's original stem and the bearings match.

Hth.

Regards,

#522059 - 01/08/14 3:09 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: AngloBike]  
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Originally Posted By: AngloBike
As you say you have a 68 frame and a "complete" T140 front end I assume that you have Trident yokes?
otherwise the T140 'complete" front end won't fit


Yes your right, it was a little different come to think of it. There were some mods on the yoke, it has welded bushes for a larger ID for the roller bearing, so I assume there is something else there with the length of the actual stem, it all seems to fit up nice and is tight, the roller bearings needed a spacer for the OD and got some egg ring type things made up for that. All done before I got to it I'm afraid so couldn't be 100% on the ins & outs (apart from the egg rings).


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#522061 - 01/08/14 3:12 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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But it is definitely a early t140 disc brake front end.


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#522082 - 01/08/14 5:41 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: D.W.R.]  
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Originally Posted By: D.W.R.
The situation with using T-140 fronts on older frames pertaining to the T-150 steering stem is this: Can you just bolt on the T140 parts? Yes you can, BUT you have about HALF of the thread engagement on the top nut! I put a T140 front on my A75 and wasn't about to use the standard stem after seeing this. I used a late T150 lower with the correct length stem, Not worth the risk imo to save a few bucks and possibly have the threads strip and your front end go loose!
Don R.


The bike in my photo has a drum brake T-120 fork. The nut engages at least an inch of threads, more than enough. I'm assuming, maybe wrong, the slightly wider T140 yokes have the same length stem ???

I just mocked up OIF drum brake yokes on a 1964 frame. The nut is screwed on about two turns...

Sorry about the crappy photo but you can see the top nut standing up about an inch









650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
#522101 - 01/08/14 8:29 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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T140 stem is shorter. A change that came about with the the oil bearing frame and tapered bearings? The T150 didn't change from the early bearings/neck specifications so the late T150 disc brake stem is longer to fit the early bearing/neck arrangement.
Don R.


71 Rocket 3
72 B50 MX
66-71 A 65 Bitsa
96 Trident 900
#522135 - 01/09/14 6:33 am Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Hillbilly bike]  
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Originally Posted By: Hillbilly bike
Stanchions are tubes as us hot rod bikers call them grin

Does a Triumph front end flex? Straddle the front wheel ,grab the handle bars and forcefully move them right and left...The front end twists quite a bit...something is flexing ,tubes twisting in the yokes and a little wheel twist. And yes, everything is torqued properly. And that's the same effect from hard braking . Next to the Triumph is my 1000 Moto Guzzi café racer with 35 MM stanchions. Do the same wiggle and it's like a rock. Nothing moves because of the clamping of the beefy yokes, possibly better stanchion steel and more rigid wheel assembly. I suspect 70's Japanese machine will flex like a Triumph.

I did what you said about straddling the front wheel and twisting the front end with the handle bars, you're right, there is a lot of movement there, I may have to firm this up with a brace or even twin disc set up to even it out a bit. It seems to be a lot more than I expected to be honest.

I've just had a look at the front end and did what you say about twisting the front end via the handle bars straddling the wheel and there is a lot of movement, I think I may have to firm this up with a brace or even getting a twin disc set up to make it more even as well.

The flex doesn't seem to hurt the Triumph handling .But when braking hard it twists and creates more fork slider friction. I would bet if you replaced the Meriden front end with a more robust front end the difference would be quite noticeable.


Bucko
1966/68 T120 Bonnie
#522658 - 01/12/14 4:19 pm Re: T140 fork Flex under brakes [Re: Michael]  
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I notice the fork flex and twisting within the yokes when riding my T140. My forks are in the process of being changed out for 35mm Betors along with a period fork brace and emulators.
Common setup when we raced in the 70's before they increased the OD of the forks and the strength of the the triples
(without the emulators).


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