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Throw away the wet sump valve? #30981
11/07/07 12:28 pm
11/07/07 12:28 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,815
Charleston SC
Ob1quixote Offline OP
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Ob1quixote  Offline OP
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Charleston SC
Didnt want to hijack the other thread...

If you remove the wet sump valve, I'm guessing the pump is left to keep the oil in the tank. I would hope it were sealed well enough to do that.

So, what happens if the dry sump gets wet? I take it the pump will clear the condition when the engine is fired up, any other deleterious effects?


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Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30982
11/07/07 12:32 pm
11/07/07 12:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,018
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Offline

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Stone Creek OH USA
The anti wet sumping valve I don't like is an aftermarket thing. It goes between the tank and pump. The one on the engine is internal and is opened with flow from the pump. The aftermarket relys on vacuum to open it.

I just flat DON'T trust them. They raise suction pressure on the pump which is a bad thing. Some of the passages in the engine case are already marginal in size, so the poor pump doesn't need more restriction to work against.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30983
11/07/07 12:36 pm
11/07/07 12:36 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,815
Charleston SC
Ob1quixote Offline OP
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Charleston SC
OIC!


When singing "Kung Fu Fighting" is outlawed, only outlaws will sing "Kung Fu Fighting"
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30984
11/07/07 2:49 pm
11/07/07 2:49 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
V
Valk Offline
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Valk  Offline
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V
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
whoever is chucking their wet sump valve, I'll take it off your hands. I'm getting one for my a10 - tired of it sumping every time.
Peter

PS I am not afraid....


'56 Road Rocket
'66 Lightningbolt
'98 Valk
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30985
11/07/07 3:45 pm
11/07/07 3:45 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
I wasn't afraid of the aftermarket wet-sump valve either ....

... until a brand-new, functioning one ruined my engine.

The BSA engine depends on the tolerances in the oil pump, and the fact that you ride the thing every once in a while, to keep the oil in the tank.

If you put a check valve on the suction side of an oil pump, you run the risk that the pump will not "prime" when it starts up, with the attendant engine damage.

Happened to me. Sent the valve back to the seller who confirmed that it was functioning as normal. I've got the scarred-up engine parts if anyone wants to see them.

If your oil is running into your sump, why not just fix the silly oil pump so it's working right rather than bodging some failure-prone $75 band-aid onto the engine, with a $2500 down-side risk when it fails?

Lannis


You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30986
11/07/07 3:53 pm
11/07/07 3:53 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
Quote:
Originally posted by Ob1quixote:

So, what happens if the dry sump gets wet? I take it the pump will clear the condition when the engine is fired up, any other deleterious effects?
On an A65, with a good, tight oil pump, the bike can sit for a month or two. Oil will slowly drip past the gears into the sump.

The bike holds about 3.5 quarts in the tank, and there's normally about 1/4 pint or so in the sump after a run. If you let the bike sit for a year, ALL of the oil will run into the sump. You wouldn't want to start it like that, you might get a "hydraulic lock" since oil doesn't compress, and bend a conrod or something.

But you can start it and run it just fine with a quart or two in the sump. The "return" side of the oil pump has more capacity than the "pressure" side, so a few minutes of running will return all the oil to the tank where it belongs.

Best way to do (I think):

1) Check the oil when you get BACK from a ride; this way you know that all the oil is in the tank. If you need to add some, do it then.

2) If the bike has sat for a long time, check the oil BEFORE you ride. If you can still see it on the dipstick, then the sump is not full of oil, and you can start it and let the pump put the oil back in the tank.

If you don't check the oil AFTER you ride, and only check it BEFORE you ride, you'll see "Wow, I'm a quart low, I'd better add some", so you add a quart. Now you've got 4.5 quarts in the bike; 3.5 in the tank and 1 quart in the sump. You can see where this leads after a cycle or two of this....

Lannis


You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30987
11/07/07 4:34 pm
11/07/07 4:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 195
uk
G
gram Offline
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gram  Offline
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Posts: 195
uk
My experience of these 'valves' was rather expensive.One had been fitted by the previous owner of my Ariel Huntmaster(A10 engine).After the bike had sat for a few weeks,the ball in the valve stuck on its seat on initial start up and continued to do so on subsequent starts until the mechanical maladies made themselves known even to my ears.Engine rebuild followed including a recon oil pump from SRM.The engine is often not run for a week or two but little oil seeps into the sump.I suspect the new pump helps and also i leave the engine at TDC.I have read of similar disasters involving these valves,but don't let me put anybody off using one.
Gram

Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30988
11/07/07 5:27 pm
11/07/07 5:27 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,167
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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Posts: 11,167
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Ob1quixote:
So, what happens if the dry sump gets wet? I take it the pump will clear the condition when the engine is fired up...
Exactly "NO" !!

The pump works way too slow to clear the oil before the 1) pressures of the changing crankcase volumes and 2) the mass of the offset flywheel set in and DEMAND that the extra oil be gone. So the extra oil is forced past the oil seal on the DS of the crank and into the primary case.

Once in the primary case, the excess motor oil causes the clutch to fail to release upon disengagement, and may even cause the clutch to slip upon engagement (depending on the type of motor oil you use). In any case, the primary case is WAY over filled, and oil leaks start to gush out from places that were previously always dry.


If your BSA is oil wet sumping and you are at your whits end to do something, then a FAR, FAR better device to spend your money on is one of the engine sump plates with the built-in drain bolt. Using one of these, you can be sure that the oil leaking into the sump is "preserving" your main bearings, AND when you're ready to ride, the quick application of a spanner can drain the offending oil into a clean pan, where it can poured directly back into the oil tank. This will take you all of about 3 minutes, AND end forever any nighmares about, "Is my big end being starved for oil or not??" that is so common with the external anti-wetsump valves.

I fully agree with RichB and Lannis... stay away from the external, after market anti-wetsump valves at all costs.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30989
11/07/07 5:42 pm
11/07/07 5:42 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,594
Central Virginia
Quote:
Originally posted by RF Whatley:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ob1quixote:
So, what happens if the dry sump gets wet? I take it the pump will clear the condition when the engine is fired up...
Exactly "NO" !!

The pump works way too slow to clear the oil before the 1) pressures of the changing crankcase volumes and 2) the mass of the offset flywheel set in and DEMAND that the extra oil be gone.
bigt
RF -

I assume that you're talking about the situation where all 3+ quarts of the oil in the tank are now in the sump.

I know that my oil, over a long period of time, can go from the top mark on the dipstick to the bottom (but still showing, therefore about 1.5 quarts still in the tank, not in the sump), and start and run the engine with no ill effects like oil going into the primary, or blowing seals or whatever.

My alloy sump plate with drain plug has paid for itself many times over in avoiding wasted oil, sump gaskets, etc. First change I'd make on an A65 ....

Lannis


You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30990
11/07/07 7:17 pm
11/07/07 7:17 pm
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 144
Peterborough. UK
LJ. Offline
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LJ.  Offline
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Posts: 144
Peterborough. UK
Quote:
and also i leave the engine at TDC.
What is the benefit of leaving your engine at top dead centre? Not heard of this before.


LJ.
*******
1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- In Bits!
1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green
1949 BSA A7 500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-Black
1953 BSA B33 500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Blue
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Red
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30991
11/07/07 8:51 pm
11/07/07 8:51 pm
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 346
Lake Conjola NSW Australia
pooch Offline
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Lake Conjola NSW Australia
Taking a B31 could ALL the oil fit in the sump, if the piston was at BDC, or even TDC?


56 B31 with B33 barrel
51 Golden Flash with Dusting sidecar
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30992
11/07/07 9:32 pm
11/07/07 9:32 pm
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7,813
Seattle
Alex Offline

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Alex  Offline

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Posts: 7,813
Seattle
If you hang your bike up by its front wheel, it can't wet sump...


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30994
11/08/07 7:05 pm
11/08/07 7:05 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
V
Valk Offline
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Valk  Offline
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Posts: 294
Bethesda, MD
ok ok...I'm afraid now...I've stricken the sump valve off my Christmas list.
Peter

PS I have an SRM drain plug, it's still a PITA..


'56 Road Rocket
'66 Lightningbolt
'98 Valk
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30995
11/08/07 9:28 pm
11/08/07 9:28 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,674
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,674
Sydney Australia
LJ,

You leave your motor on TDC compression stroke so that both of the valves are closed. This dose a couple of things.
It helps the valve springs maintain their correct length & thus valve closing pressure when the engine is running.
It takes contact pressure off the cam so oil can (hopefully) drain down the followers and sit between the cam & followers preventing corrosion.
It stops moisture entering the cylinder reducing the chance of the rings rusting to the bore/ piston.
It stops one valve rusting in the open position thus staying that way when you try & start the bike latter on.
If the inlet valve is not open then small invertribrates can not crawl into your cylinder or if your carb leaks the cylinder will not fill up with petrol either.

Those with 1 or 2 redundant cylinders will of course have to remove their rocker covers and back off the tappets to get the same benefits that we can get with a simple swing of the foot. ;-)


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30996
11/08/07 9:40 pm
11/08/07 9:40 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,674
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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B
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Sydney Australia
One of our members had an even better idea.
He rode quite infrequently so after each ride he popped the bike up on the center stand & removed the drain bolt ( yes he did have an aftermarket sump fitted) , before he even took off his helmet.
The bike stayed that way till the next time that he wanted to use it when he replaced the plug AND PUT IN NICE CLEAN FRESH OIL, consigning the old stuff for use latter in the tin top.

Now he had a 1964 A65 which had fresh bearing put in just before he bought it that were still in good nick when he sold it last year after 20 years fo riding with over 60,000 miles on the bottom end.
Just a fluke ?
Well it changed my ideas on oil maintenance, quite some long time ago ( after the 2nd set of bearings went into my A10).


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30997
11/08/07 9:41 pm
11/08/07 9:41 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 206
Northants
Clanger Offline
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Clanger  Offline
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Posts: 206
Northants
Whilst those are all good points, I think the main reason for setting at TDC is so that the crankpins are at their highest point, thus reducing the effect of gravity in all this..


Cheers Clanger

Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30998
11/10/07 7:23 pm
11/10/07 7:23 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,213
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,213
Atlanta, GA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Lannis:
<snip>

If your oil is running into your sump, why not just fix the silly oil pump so it's working right rather than bodging some failure-prone $75 band-aid onto the engine, with a $2500 down-side risk when it fails?

Lannis
Hi Lannis,

Don't you just replace the check ball and spring behind the oil pump. If that ball is sealing right against the pump body, your engine won't wet sump right???


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #30999
11/10/07 7:30 pm
11/10/07 7:30 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,213
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
Ah HA! I have a solution. Instead of a drain plug at the bottom of the sump, install a 90 degree fitting and a hose that leeds to an electric oil pump. This will pump the oil out of the sump back to the resevoir before every start using a push button switch on the handle bar. Of course this needs an oil pressure light to tell you when the sump has gone dry. This will no doubt piss off the faithful....the price of progress!


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31000
11/10/07 7:46 pm
11/10/07 7:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,018
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Offline

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Stone Creek OH USA
Semper Gumby sez:

"Don't you just replace the check ball and spring behind the oil pump. If that ball is sealing right against the pump body, your engine won't wet sump right"

It will still leak into the sump. The ball/spring slows the draining of oil, it won't stop it. To make it stop it would affect the oil delivery as it would be too high of a pressure spring.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31001
11/10/07 10:34 pm
11/10/07 10:34 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,380
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Bega NSW Australia
Can anyone see, although the checkball under the pump can be totaly sealing,how the oil is slowly draining into the sump?


I'll give a hint; the pump had been wiped clean about 1 minute before the photo.


mark
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31002
11/11/07 12:09 pm
11/11/07 12:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,018
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Offline

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Rich B  Offline

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R
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Posts: 5,018
Stone Creek OH USA
Since I already know the answer :p

You are leaking at eth end covers of teh pump. Either the screws are loose or the ends are not flat. There probably is also NO sealant between the body and end covers.

I had a Victor drive me crazy wth wet sumping. Would even wet sump while running. Loose pump body screws...nope, shytty aftermarket pump gasket wouldn't seal the pump to the cases. Used one of 441 Steve's gaskets and solved the problem.

There is more than one place a BSA can wet sump


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31003
11/11/07 6:05 pm
11/11/07 6:05 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,213
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
BTW - The insides of that motor look nasty!!!


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31004
11/11/07 7:45 pm
11/11/07 7:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,646
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
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ca, us
1: get a cast iron body pump.
2: use Loctite Gasket Eliminator between the body sections.

Actually, the problem is the check valve is a poor design. There is only the weight of the oil above the pump forcing the oil past the valve. If the check valve was a small piston with an O-ring seal and just enough spring pressure to close it there would be no problem.
Drill a hole, drop in the spring and ball and call it good was a simple cheap solution.
You would need a polished ball and seat to make it work over a long time.

Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? #31005
11/12/07 6:55 am
11/12/07 6:55 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,380
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Posts: 2,380
Bega NSW Australia
Gumby,
'The insides of that motor look nasty!!!'
Thats my good motor! Actually it does a lot of work between rebuilds and gets used all the time, its so black in there from running castor oil, which I switched from a few years ago when I could no longer get it.
I replaced that pump with a big gear alloy one which has been very good.
I've got it all pulled down at the moment for a freshen up, and some welding on the cases, and reinforcing, where the T/S C/case had cracked.


mark
Re: Throw away the wet sump valve? [Re: Lannis] #519285
12/18/13 12:43 pm
12/18/13 12:43 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4
cultus lake bc
I
iron john Offline
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Posts: 4
cultus lake bc
hi saw your comment have you ever seen the one i make for the ajs matchless club its as goof prof as it can get and do's not block the feed line ironjohn

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