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Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516323
11/26/13 9:54 pm
11/26/13 9:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
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Mr Mike Offline OP
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Mr Mike  Offline OP
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Cape Carteret, NC
Don't know how I wrote 100 degrees C equals 165 degrees F. Everyone knows it is the boiling point of water is 212 degrees F. My A65 oil runs about 165 degrees F, a little hotter on a hot day and it takes some hard running to get it hot. A put-put around the neighborhood doesn't get it done. Modern car engines use 5w30 and make about 20psi at idle and 50 psi cruising the interstate at about 2000 rpms. I get this on my BSA with the modified oil pressure control uding 20w50. I want to see if I can duplicate that performance with a lighter oil. When it stops raining and turns warmer I'll give it a go.

Mr Mike

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Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516335
11/26/13 10:47 pm
11/26/13 10:47 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,147
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Offline
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Boston, Massachusetts
Modern car engines use 5w30 and make about 20psi at idle and 50 psi cruising the interstate at about 2000 rpms."

To even think about comparing your A65 with a modern automobile. They are very different animals.


Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516345
11/27/13 12:23 am
11/27/13 12:23 am
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,330
Medford, Oregon
Gary E Offline
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Gary E  Offline
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Medford, Oregon
Quote:
"Arrhenius' equation is a simple, but remarkably accurate, formula for the temperature dependence of reaction rates. The equation was proposed by Svante Arrhenius in 1889, based on the work of Dutch chemist J. H. van't Hoff who had noted in 1884 that van't Hoff's equation for the temperature dependence of equilibrium constants suggests such a formula for the rates of both forward and reverse reactions. Arrhenius provided a physical justification and interpretation for the formula.[1] Currently, it is best seen as an empirical relationship.[2] It can be used to model the temperature variation of diffusion coefficients, population of crystal vacancies, creep rates, and many other thermally-induced processes/reactions. The Eyring equation, developed in 1935, also expresses the relationship between rate and energy.

A historically useful generalization supported by Arrhenius' equation is that, for many common chemical reactions at room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature."


Hmmm, doesn't seems to apply.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Gary E] #516354
11/27/13 2:41 am
11/27/13 2:41 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,454
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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scotland
Originally Posted By: Gary E
Quote:
[
A historically useful generalization supported by Arrhenius' equation is that, for many common chemical reactions at room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature."[/i]

Hmmm, doesn't seems to apply.


Why do you think it doesn't apply?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516415
11/27/13 1:33 pm
11/27/13 1:33 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,147
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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John Healy  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,147
Boston, Massachusetts
The typical dynamic viscosity of 50 weight motor oil 0 to 100 C
0C (32*F) = 3.82
20C (68F) = 0.630
50C (122F) = 0.97
100C (212) = 0.015

Because it is essentially the oil's temperature that determines the final operating viscosity keeping the oil within the normal range is essential. If the operating temperature is allowed to increase the target operating viscosity will not be maintained. It will be the same as starting with a lighter weight oil. As you can see the rate of decline in viscosity vs heat is not linear. Yes the rate of decline does slow down and never reaches 0, but at 0.015 it is not going to do the job required.


Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516421
11/27/13 2:24 pm
11/27/13 2:24 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,358
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
"Viscosity is the most temperature dependent characteristic of any liquid". Cant remember where I read that but if you think about it--it is certainly true.
And remember, Gary, it is not pure oil.
Above about 185 degrees F (85 degrees C) the additives in the oil (and there are a whole bunch of them) start to deteriorate very rapidly).
How do I know?---from detailed discussions with Castrol technicians when developing the Trident oil cooler in the late 1960s/early 1970s. And while things have moved on somewhat since then---they haven't moved on that far!
IMHO if you run oil in our engines at 212 degrees F you are asking for trouble and can be pretty sure you will get it!
HTH

Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: John Healy] #516422
11/27/13 2:26 pm
11/27/13 2:26 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,014
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: John Healy

To even think about comparing your A65 with a modern automobile. They are very different animals.

That's what I keep telling them when they say, "Many cars use plain bushings on the crank without problems." grin


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Tridentman] #516471
11/27/13 9:24 pm
11/27/13 9:24 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,330
Medford, Oregon
Gary E Offline
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Gary E  Offline
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Medford, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tridentman
...IMHO if you run oil in our engines at 212 degrees F you are asking for trouble and can be pretty sure you will get it!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Aircraft engines routinely run oil temperatures over 200 F. The engines typically have a factory rated life before first major overhaul of 2,000 hours at full power. Let's see, 2,000 hours at 150 MPH = 300,000 miles. Internal engine corrosion is a major factor for shortened engine life, and one of the significant causes is from too low of oil temperature.

I've degressed too far from the subject of this thread, so this is it.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #516479
11/27/13 10:59 pm
11/27/13 10:59 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,358
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Gary--you can formulate oils that will work at 200 degrees F--they will have a quite different additive package from the oils we use in our clunkers--and more expensive too!
For example thermal heating oils are formulated to operate at 250 degrees F---but I wouldn't put that in my A7SS.
As usual it is horses for courses and the oils which are formulated for air cooled road vehicles with the designs of our old clunkers have an optimum oil temperature of about 180 degrees F.
I agree that overcooling is very prevalent with our bikes--I shudder whenever I see a Bonnie with an oil cooler!

Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517325
12/03/13 9:33 pm
12/03/13 9:33 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline OP
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Mr Mike  Offline OP
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Cape Carteret, NC
Well, I started this wandering thread and promised to get back. I ran the bike today with straight 30w oil...auto store brand. At start-up idle I had about 75 psi. Recall I have a modified pressure control system that is undersized for cold oil so I have to let it warm up. Any bypass oil goes directly to the tank not the sump. The OPRV return cavity is plugged. It was about 55 degrees outside temperature. I eased out of the neighborhood and out on the back roads holding about 60 psi. After a while, still holding 60 psi, I made a twenty mile run at 55-60 mph or 3500+rpms in top gear. After about ten miles, it ran about 55 psi constantly. When I stopped to turn around I let it idle for a few minutes at a steady 22-25 psi. I rode it back 20 miles at the same speed and the pressure actually increased a little. I attributed that to the outside temperature dropping. It was about 50 degrees when I got home. Oil temp was about 150-155 degrees. I idled the bike in the yard for a long time(I don't normally do this with a hot motor)raising the oil temp to about 165-170 degrees and the oil pressure dropped to about 18-20 psi. I had to shut it off as the it started to idle rough do to getting hot and the gas boiling in the carb bowl. Anyway 30W worked OK for me in this cooler weather. Not sure what the result would be if it were 90 degrees like summertime usually is.

I have no way to compare pressure control of my system with the stock OPRV system with out a gauge port as in the later model engines, but I suspect as others have that oil pressure is bleeding off in our stock systems either through the threads in the cavity, leaking by the piston or ball, or by hysteresis.

Mr Mike

Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517606
12/05/13 10:39 pm
12/05/13 10:39 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 795
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Hi Mr Mike, it certainly sounds like the 30w oil is doing its job and it would be interesting to compare the oil pressure using 20w50 under similar conditions.

I was wondering where you are measuring the oil temp on your bike as the numbers seem a little low. I guess if it was measured at the oil tank, the temp may be cooler as the tank is remote from the engine and subjected to cold air flow.

In theory, the oil, once in the engine, would be subjected to large variations in temp/viscosity and therefore pressure depending on the location. However, its very difficult to know how the oil behaves in the engine so I guess we have to be guided by manufacturers recommendations.

Interestingly I was looking at some oil viscosity recommendation charts for various older cars and bikes and it does say 30w oil can be used where the ambient temp is between 30f and 80f. Multigrade 20w50 is recommended for temp ranges of 15f to 115f, so really your oil choice it seems to depend on where you live and the annual variation on ambient temp and whether you want to change the oil to suit.

Last edited by gunner; 12/05/13 10:42 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517610
12/06/13 12:17 am
12/06/13 12:17 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline OP
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Mr Mike  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
I chose straight 30W for the reasons you said. Even the old BSA manuals recommend 30W for winter. Multi grades were advertised in the early days of the 60ties as "All season oils" and IMO they are better for their multi viscosity features. In North Carolina in the winter we see normally 30-40 degrees F in the early morning and 45-55degrees F on the afternoon. I measured my oil temp right where it drizzled back to the tank with a probe type thermometer. I would expect at the bottom of the tank it is even cooler. I would guess that in summertime when it is 85-90 degrees, I would see oil temps a bit higher. My probe might be low as I calibrated it with boiling water and it registered around 200 degrees in a pan of boiling water. It is not a high tech probe. The bike seems to cool itself well when it is moving.

I am still looking to understand why so many BSA twins have such low oil pressure. I think the pressure control system and that cavity are a big part of it but I can't be sure. My oil pressure is where I'd expect it to be with the altered system I am using but I have no way to compare it with the stock system.

Mr Mike

Last edited by Mr Mike; 12/09/13 9:55 am.
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517683
12/06/13 3:28 pm
12/06/13 3:28 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,014
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: Mr Mike
My oil pressure is where I'd expect it to be with the altered system I am using but I have no way to measure it with the stock system.

Mr Mike

My stock system runs 70psi on start up. After about 20 miles I'm reading 40 psi. With an ambient temperature in the 80-90 range, oil temps is 190 when I get home (meat thermometer in the tank where the dip stick goes.)
This is with Valvoline 20w50 MC oil or Kendall GT straight 50.
However, I have no idea about the condition of my bottom end, I didn't build it.
I haven't used 30w for anything but ring seating since I sold my last VW. grin


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517702
12/06/13 5:55 pm
12/06/13 5:55 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline OP
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Mr Mike  Offline OP
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Cape Carteret, NC
David,
A lot of folks would love to have 40 psi after 20 miles of running. I too use a meat thermometer to check oil temp. Not sure how accurate mine is. It'll be a while before I get another hot day to test my 30w with a strong ride.

Mr Mike

Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: Mr Mike] #517818
12/07/13 2:43 pm
12/07/13 2:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,880
Elko, Nevada USA
dave - NV Offline
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Elko, Nevada USA
Drifting away a bit .... Several years ago I adapted a HD accessory oil temp gauge to my Goldie. You others may want to try doing this. I use the gauge every time I ride to insure the oil temp is up a bit before pulling hard.
The HD oil temp probe also acts as a oil level dipstick for a quick and accurate look see.
As the HD gauge is made with a 'rubber stopper' to replace the OEM HD oil tank 'push in' bung, you merely drill/cut a largish hole in the BI oil tank cap to permanently fit it in place.

Gold Stars run cooler than many/most other BI engines. The highest oil temp I've seen was 195F when 'wringing her neck' on a mountain road on a 95F+ afternoon. The typical operating oil temp when riding moderately is ~ 170F.

BTW, I'm a firm believer in using 20-50 Valvoline Racing oil. Read the specs, good stuff.


dave - NV
Re: A different oil question for A50/65's [Re: dave - NV] #517997
12/09/13 7:35 am
12/09/13 7:35 am
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,234
Atlanta, GA USA
S
Semper Gumby Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
+1 Valvolene VR-1.


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
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