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#505828 - 09/12/13 9:13 am Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition  
Joined: Aug 2012
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Beach Offline
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Beach  Offline

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West Virginia, United States
I didn't like the idea of running my Norton at 5000rpm while trying to time the Boyer ignition so I looked for an advance curve so it could be timed at a lower rpm...I found this info on a website and could probably use the info to time at lower rpm...Hope this information can be useful to others..

http://www.nocnsw.org.au/technical/ignition-timing-for-commando-boyer


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
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#505832 - 09/12/13 10:43 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: Mar 2005
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
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Boston, Massachusetts
I think this information is based upon the assumption that the Boyer ignition advance comes to Full Advance @ exactly 5,000 rpm. The typical unit will stop advancing well before engine reaches 5,000 rpm. This also assumes that the total advance range is going to be exactly the same from unit to unit. Again this is only an assumption on the part of the person offering this information.

The point of concern is when the unit stops advancing, and when it does are the pistons 32 degrees before TDC. It has little to do with the engine turning 5,000 rpm other than it gives you a moment of time to verify that the unit has truly stopped advancing.

It is not required that one hold the throttle at a steady 5,000 rpm!!!!!!! One needs to only blip the throttle so the strobe illuminated timing mark can be observed.

This is best done with two people. One sitting on the bike (wheels on the ground) and operating the throttle and making changes to the position of the pick-up unit on the right hand side of the bike and another on the left hand side operating the strobe and observing the rotor as it relates to the timing mark.


#505841 - 09/12/13 11:28 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
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Beach Offline
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Beach  Offline

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West Virginia, United States
So just blip the throttle and make sure it hits 31 degrees on timing light?


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
#505852 - 09/12/13 12:26 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,889
kommando Online content
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Scotland
Yes, I keep it there just a sec as that's all that's needed, the variation between units is a lot based on my experience just changing the black box, what was timed correctly changed to badly retarded and a blue pipe in seconds of running.

#505854 - 09/12/13 12:33 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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scotland
Just rev it until it stops advancing. That may be at around 5,000rpm.

Don't worry about revving it- nothing bad will happen.

If you don't time it right, something bad might well happen when you use the bike!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#505911 - 09/12/13 4:58 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Beach Offline
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West Virginia, United States
I got it timed and now understand what is going on...I blipped the throttle and made sure the timing didn't go over 31 degrees BTDC..Should be good to go now I would imagine..


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
#506203 - 09/14/13 1:23 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: May 2005
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shel Online content
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shel  Online Content
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ohio
My 76 T140V with Boyer runs better slightly retarded, I can't say why, modern fuel?


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#506479 - 09/15/13 7:31 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Tridentman Online content
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New Jersey USA
John--you seem lost for words!

#506501 - 09/15/13 10:56 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Tridentman Online content
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So--Britbike turns to Twitter--140 characters max!

#506545 - 09/16/13 9:53 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
TR6Ray Online content
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TR6Ray  Online Content

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Illinois, USA
John, I sure hope Morgan gets the "shooting blanks" issue worked out. I'd really like to read your response to Shel's post up above. Maybe the issue is one of compatability on your system? Ironically, I, who have nothing important to contribute, seem to be having no problem posting.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#506555 - 09/16/13 10:27 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Posts: 9,967
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


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Boston, Massachusetts
Again, I typed a couple of sentences and come up blank!

Last edited by John Healy; 09/16/13 10:28 am.

#506561 - 09/16/13 10:50 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
try emailing it to morgan, I think he is putting the posts in which are.. well like yours smile


beerchug
#506616 - 09/16/13 3:13 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
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Dave M Offline
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Ok, I get that the important thing is the point at which advancement
stops. If the bike performs best before the 5000 mark how is the optimum point reached? Sorry to belabor this, just not seeing how. Dave


66 TR6R Trophy
67 T120R Bonneville
68 BMW R60/US
69 T100R Daytona

#506633 - 09/16/13 5:57 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: triton thrasher]  
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Lannis Online content
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Lannis  Online Content

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Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: triton thrasher
Just rev it until it stops advancing. That may be at around 5,000rpm.

Don't worry about revving it- nothing bad will happen.





Well, unless you count dancing sideways on the centerstand across the garage floor faster than you can catch it!

At least my BSA does. Maybe Nortons don't do that.

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#506648 - 09/16/13 6:48 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


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Boston, Massachusetts
Dave
What you are doing is aligning the timing mark on the alternator rotor. The reason you go past the rpm point where it stops advancing is to make sure that it has truly stopped advancing. The point where the pointer aligns with the line on the rotor is a reference. That reference in the case of a Triumph is telling you the bike is timed to 39 degrees.

Now for some folks, say the T140 crowd where the Workshop manual says 39 degrees but it has been proven that it is less apt to suffer detonation if the timing is retarded 2 degrees. So you need to remark the timing mark on the alternator rotor to reflect the new Full Advance timing mark or 37 degrees.

This way, if there is a problem and you remove and replace the Boyer timing rotor or timing cover to work on the oil pump, you can have a new reference point to strobe to.

Without aligning the timing mark with your strobe AT FULL ADVANCE, you have no idea what the engine is timed to.

Lannis I like to save my dancing encounters to those of the other sex. I just sit on the bike, or have a friend do it, while the wheels are on the ground. Maybe if you invite the little woman out from the kitchen to help she just might remember all the fun she had riding and you just might get lucky...


#506677 - 09/16/13 8:13 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Lannis Online content
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Lannis  Online Content

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Central Virginia
John, by the way .... for all these "blank posts" that we have to scan through ...

You CAN pull them up, hit "Edit", hit "Delete This Post" and it's gone ....

Lannis


OK, I admit it, I'm addicted to brake fluid.

But I can stop any time I want.
#506685 - 09/16/13 8:46 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Posts: 9,967
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


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Boston, Massachusetts
Lannis I have deleted more of these blank post than you would want to count.
I have been searching for the cause and think I have found one - that is using the symbol for degrees instead of typing out degrees.

If I post the above using the symbol instead of the word degrees it will be blank.

Last edited by John Healy; 09/16/13 8:48 pm.

#506709 - 09/17/13 2:30 am Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted By: John Healy


Lannis I like to save my dancing encounters to those of the other sex. I just sit on the bike, or have a friend do it, while the wheels are on the ground. Maybe if you invite the little woman out from the kitchen to help she just might remember all the fun she had riding and you just might get lucky...


laughing

Glad to see your able to contribute properly again John


beerchug
#506765 - 09/17/13 12:11 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 742
Dave M Offline
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Dave M  Offline
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USA
Originally Posted By: John Healy
Dave
What you are doing is aligning the timing mark on the alternator rotor. The reason you go past the rpm point where it stops advancing is to make sure that it has truly stopped advancing. The point where the pointer aligns with the line on the rotor is a reference. That reference in the case of a Triumph is telling you the bike is timed to 39 degrees.

Now for some folks, say the T140 crowd where the Workshop manual says 39 degrees but it has been proven that it is less apt to suffer detonation if the timing is retarded 2 degrees. So you need to remark the timing mark on the alternator rotor to reflect the new Full Advance timing mark or 37 degrees.

This way, if there is a problem and you remove and replace the Boyer timing rotor or timing cover to work on the oil pump, you can have a new reference point to strobe to.

Without aligning the timing mark with your strobe AT FULL ADVANCE, you have no idea what the engine is timed to.

Lannis I like to save my dancing encounters to those of the other sex. I just sit on the bike, or have a friend do it, while the wheels are on the ground. Maybe if you invite the little woman out from the kitchen to help she just might remember all the fun she had riding and you just might get lucky...


Ok, I want to say I hope Lannis gets lucky! I mean that!

But now more confused than ever, the bike ran poorly after doing what is described above. Retarded it became my sweet running triumph again and I don't understand why!
Shining the timing light on the spinning rotor and reving to 5000, adjusting the Boyer plate so all marks coincide at 5000 causes this engine to run very poorly, lean, no power at all and a rough idle.
Retarded, it runs great, plenty of power, smooth idle, gone are the snow white plugs.
Guessing cannot be a solution however. So, how does one know when the inscribed marks seem not true? Sorry, thanks for your patience, certainly you've better things to do. dave


66 TR6R Trophy
67 T120R Bonneville
68 BMW R60/US
69 T100R Daytona

#506785 - 09/17/13 3:18 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,251
No Name Man Online content
Life member
No Name Man  Online Content

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SE Ohio
Lannis, I had the same thought...but you put it into words better.

I also have nothing important to contribute, but I can post as much nothing as I want, it seems...


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
Too much moderation is bad for you.

#506797 - 09/17/13 4:21 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,967
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
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Boston, Massachusetts
It seems that blank posts upset more than me.

They were a result of a way that I work out kinks in computer code when it doesn't work. It is a matter of working back to the point where the code starts to work. It usually points you to the point where the problem starts.

As few others have not experienced the problem I started to look at what I was writing in the posts as computer code. What gave this idea is Morgan had shut off HTML and when the server accepted both UBBCode and HTML I was not having the problem. I felt that it must be a problem in the way UBBCode was interpreting what I was typing.

Sure enough when I used the symbol for degrees the post cam up blank. I was creating new posts and editing old posts also in a way to try to find out what was happening.

OK, type a post and include the symbol for degrees and see what happens. I didn't go back and delete all of the blank posts because we are busy and have two people on vacation. Sorry all this annoyed anyone!

PS: I have a bit of text that I still cannot post so there is more than the symbol for degrees at play here!!!

Dave, neither your 69 T100R or your 66 TR6 should have problems with the timing set at 39 BTDC. What you are telling me is the timing mark you are using is suspect. Have you checked it to see if it is really 39 degrees BTDC?

When you say retarded. How far from the 39 BTDC mark are you setting it at full advance.

Last edited by John Healy; 09/17/13 4:23 pm.

#506806 - 09/17/13 5:24 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 742
Dave M Offline
BritBike Forum member
Dave M  Offline
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Posts: 742
USA
Originally Posted By: John Healy
Have you checked it to see if it is really 39 degrees BTDC?

When you say retarded. How far from the 39 BTDC mark are you setting it at full advance.


But that's the question, how do I do that?
My 66 Tr6 has a later crank fitted with TDC and 38 degree notches. (confirmed w/ a degree wheel)
1. Set crank at 38 degrees, white spot showing in Boyer pick-up plate left hole for clockwise rotation.
2.Inductive timing light shone (using car batt) on rotor, adjusting Boyer plate so all marks (plate and "B" mark secured w/ cover screws) line up @ 5000 rpms.
3.Poor running, all the symptoms.
4. Adjusted Boyer pick-up plate clockwise, rotated about 3/8 to 1/2 of an inch.
5. Sweet running old bike has returned...happy but pure luck!
Thanks for staying w/ this, I'd sure like to know. dave


66 TR6R Trophy
67 T120R Bonneville
68 BMW R60/US
69 T100R Daytona

#506815 - 09/17/13 6:44 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Dave, your symptoms of running poorly, struggling to idle and a lean mixture are not the effects of over advancing - infact quite the opposite. A retarded ignition requires a richer mixture, struggles to maintain a slow idle (with a slightly over advanced ignition I can maintain 400-500 rpm - with retarded I can just maintain 1000 rpm idle) running poorly??? please describe.

All the Gunson timing lights have a Advance dial attached. Its easily done to knock that dial and really balls up your ignition timing. It should be turned all the way counter-clockwise. You won't be the first to do that. if you rotate the dial clockwise it will show the ignition is a lot further advanced than what it is. Unfortunately unlike the Pazon unit, the Boyer doesn't give a simple instruction of which direction to rotate the pick up plate for advance or retard, again its easy to mix up when working on both sides of the engine.


beerchug
#506816 - 09/17/13 6:49 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: Beach]  
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Posts: 9,967
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


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Posts: 9,967
Boston, Massachusetts
OK, I think we might have a clue, but I have more questions.

The right hole in the phenolic timing plate is for clockwise rotation of the magnets. Triumphs are clockwise. The left hole is for counter clockwise rotation. This would be a BSA twin or Norton.

Question: When you use your plunger tool that engages the flywheel and locates it at either top dead center of 39 degrees BTDC do you verify that the pistons are truly at TDC before rotating the engine backwards (by putting bike in high rear and rotating the wheel backwards?

Once you are sure of the crankshaft position does the timing mark on the rotor align exactly (give or take a smidge) with the "B" line on the 60-7014 timing plate adaptor?

Or is the statement "left hole" a typo and you meant right hole?
John


#506820 - 09/17/13 7:10 pm Re: Alternative for timing a Boyer ignition [Re: John Healy]  
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Dave M Offline
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Dave M  Offline
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USA
Hi John, yes, sorry, meant right hole. The plate is clearly marked.

Yes, verified TDC then in 4th gear rotated back very little to 38 degree notch.

The timing mark on the rotor, with engine not running, is quite a distance from the "B" on the plate tool, more than 1.5 inches away. Engine started, moving the points plate trying to close in so lines align at 5000 rpms. Would not align, pick up plate moved clockwise.


66 TR6R Trophy
67 T120R Bonneville
68 BMW R60/US
69 T100R Daytona

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