BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
The Bonneville Shop JRC Engineering dealers
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Posts: 57
Joined: September 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
54 registered members (998John), 300 guests, and 343 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Davenz13, Sean65, Rerock, pkuzyk, Hunter S
10476 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
NickL 89
franko 71
Triless 67
Popular Topics(Views)
747,020 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,811
Posts670,266
Members10,476
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla #503584
08/27/13 10:59 pm
08/27/13 10:59 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
I'm in the process of rebuilding what is mostly a 1966 Spit engine, with a 1965 LR crankcase, crank, and connecting rods.

I want to use the '66 gear cluster, because it was working well before, but I also have the gear cluster from the '65. Both gear clusters are assembled, and both appear to be in excellent condition.

Ok, so I was reading in the service manual about layshaft end-play. I never got into this before, because on previous rebuilds I've always put the same tranny back in the same case. I don't really want to disassemble the gear cluster, but the book says you have to do this to check the endplay.

So I decided to compare the thrust washers from the two gear clusters, and I found that the '65 thrust washer is noticeably thicker than the '66 thrust washer.

So I'm thinking, maybe I could just put the '65 thrust washer on the '66 layshaft and call it good. This would be assuming that the two layshafts are the same length, and only the cases are different.

Does this sound reasonable, or do I really have to disassemble the gear cluster? Can the layshaft end-play be checked with the entire gear cluster in place?



Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Support your #1 BSA Forum and our favorite sponsors

Check out BSA on e-bay: BSA Parts in UK, BSA Motorcycles in UK, BSA Parts in North America, BSA Motorcycles in North America

 
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503608
08/28/13 8:23 am
08/28/13 8:23 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 503
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
BritBike Forum member
pushrod tom  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 503
new jersey usa
You can check the end play with the cluster assembled.

Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503740
08/28/13 10:30 pm
08/28/13 10:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,283
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,283
Gnashville
Lay shaft end play is only checked with the gear cluster installed and the inner cover buttoned down. You then pull/push on the end of the lay shaft. You're wanting, "just perceptible," end play. The inside thrust washer comes in different thicknesses in order to set end play. I'd try the thick one first.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503746
08/28/13 11:18 pm
08/28/13 11:18 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Thanks Tom and David for the input! Tonight, I did just that, installed the gear cluster with the thicker thrust washer. Unfortunately, there's still excessive end-play. I mean a lot, like a sixteenth of an inch, maybe more. I didn't bolt down the plate, but it's right up snug against the case.

Now the question is, how/where do I get the correct thrust washer? Do I measure the end-play and then ask for a specific thickness? I hate to be pessimistic, but this has the scent of unobtainium.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503753
08/29/13 12:13 am
08/29/13 12:13 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
BritBike Forum member
JER.Hill  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Forfar, Scotland
Hi Mark

In the past I've added shims between the gear and thrust washers. The amount you have sounds a lot, you might want to tighten down the plate with two nuts and check again.
If you do a search, you'll find a few good posts on here by Gavin Eisler on gearbox set-up.
If your end float is 0.062", then I think you'll end up with shims at both ends to correct the end float and also get all your gears engaging/dis-engaging freely.

regards

John

Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503791
08/29/13 8:29 am
08/29/13 8:29 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 503
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
BritBike Forum member
pushrod tom  Offline
BritBike Forum member
P

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 503
new jersey usa
You can get a shim assortment from McMaster-Carr. Reasonable.

Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #503956
08/30/13 2:06 pm
08/30/13 2:06 pm
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,802
Comox BC Canada
G
Gordo in Comox Offline
BritBike Forum member
Gordo in Comox  Offline
BritBike Forum member
G

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,802
Comox BC Canada
My first thought would be about the spacer at the other end of the layshaft. Is it the correct one?

The 66 parts book shows three spacers for the left (clutch) side of the layshaft. 42-3079 0.113-115", 42-3212 0.120-122", and 42-3213 0.127-129". Given how little these spacers vary, a 1/16 inch gap would mean we are not talking about just the wrong spacer.

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #504007
08/30/13 9:11 pm
08/30/13 9:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
I perused the shim assortment page at McMaster Carr. A very useful resource there, thanks Tom. (Wish I had known about them years ago!)

I'll check out the spacer at the other end of the layshaft, although neither of these gear clusters have been disassembled, and the '66 tranny has been in use in the '66 crankcase for about 10 years with no issues.

Looks like I have more measuring and figuring to do. I brought home a dial indicator from work. One thing I should try is to put the '66 gear cluster back into the '66 crankcase, and measure the end-play there.

I'll get back with conclusions or at least real numbers.






Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #504034
08/31/13 3:10 am
08/31/13 3:10 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
BritBike Forum member
JER.Hill  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Forfar, Scotland
Hi Mark

Install the assembly and get a figure to compare against what you had originally. After that I think you should strip the assembly and built it up with only the lay shaft which will give a true figure for the lay shaft, which then can't in any way be influenced by the main shaft gears or selector system.
Depending on your findings, your probably going to have to strip the assembly to balance the shims, as its unlikely that you'll only have to add shims at the output end.

just may take on it.

John

Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #504066
08/31/13 10:58 am
08/31/13 10:58 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Altoona, Florida
Mike Carter R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Mike Carter R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,182
Altoona, Florida
Mark I have a ton of new old stock torrington needle bearings for the shaft. it is the one without cap they are both the same but the one in housing has a built in cap on back side..I the same bearing and fab a press in cap with silicone as there is not pressure..works fine let me know if you need a couple..The shimming process is not that difficult for us as we have a surface grinder and can make any size we need...

Cheers

Mike Carter

Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #504148
08/31/13 10:00 pm
08/31/13 10:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member
M

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
Mark,
What you are doing is what was never really done well at the factory in addition to the fact you are swapping gear clusters. The factory had tolerance limits on both the cases and the gearbox components. The used an assortment of spaces to get in the ball park. You can make nice improvements by fitting things and checking engagements. It is sorta like shimming for endfloat on the roller crank. You have do do it a couple of times to get it just right.

Mr Mike

Last edited by Mr Mike; 08/31/13 10:00 pm.
Re: Mixing and matching A65 trannys - layshaft end-pla [Re: Mark Z] #504462
09/02/13 10:26 pm
09/02/13 10:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,591
Owego, NY, USA
[Linked Image]

Well first let me say that I've wasted some time (yours and mine) by not tightening down the gear cluster end plate before measuring. I wouldn't have guessed that it would make that much difference, but with the plate nuts snugged down lightly, I'm now getting .011" end-play on the layshaft. Perhaps acceptable, at least in the ball park.

I posted the photo because I'm kind of proud of my quick-and-dirty dial indicator mount - just an outer timing cover screw and a nut at either end to make it all rigid.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2