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#499696 - 07/30/13 9:06 am BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,533
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
After speaking to SRM at the weekend, I have learnt that Quaife are still prepared to make 5 speed boxes. However after speaking to Quaife they put me in touch with P+M Motorcycles.

I spoke to Richard at P+M (if you wish to discuss your interest, he is a great guy to talk to, 02088 471711)

Now, if you are sitting comfortably he tells me that a single box to manufacture would cost between 2500-3000 ish. However, the more boxes we can get made the cheaper it will become. Quaife will not deal with the public directly on this one and use P+M as their distributor. If we can get orders for around 20-25, I can ask Richard to find me out a price, deposits will have to be made (once a price has been given) to guarantee receiving a box.

They come complete as a cassette ready to fit, so there won't be any need to do anything else to the box (unless someone knows different, please correct me).

Before considering a unit, please bear in mind that the minimum these boxes will cost is about 1200-1500. The price could come less than that, but don't expect one for 500. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't want to miss lead anyone. Nor do I want to get Richard to research a price etc, have everyone else to feel they are paying price X and committing and then someone drop out which puts the price up for anyone else. However if we can get MORE than 25 orders, I'm sure we may get it cheaper still.

Please note I don't want to make a penny on this, I just want a box as cheap as possible and once the order has been placed any money will be dealt directly with P+M Motorcycles.

I'm also hoping the likes of SRM, Dave Madigan, classic cycle supply etc are reading this as it is a golden opportunity for anyone interested.


On an alternative note, Dave Mad' did you ever work out a cost for making your own 5 speed cluster?


beerchug
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#499698 - 07/30/13 9:57 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Hampshire, England
Hi Allan,

Yes this sounds interesting. However, even at 1,200 it is still very expensive when compared to the current value of an A65.

The other matter will be the necessary casing design and machining to add in the extra gear selector fork as well as a new quadrant needed to effect selection.

If I were looking for a change to the current A65 'box, I might want to look at the possibility of alternative ratios to give a more even change, especially between 3rd and top, where the change is quite small.

In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.

What might be of greater interest to A65 owners is a new aluminium NIKASIL lined cylinder barrel which could be available in 650 or 700/750cc variants. That product should have a significantly bigger market and be potentially more 'useful' to A65 owners when compared to the technical problems and costs associated with a 5 speed 'box.

Incidentally, my very late T140 ('87 Harris Bonneville) has a NIKASIL barrel and it works very well too.

As ever just my thoughts.


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499703 - 07/30/13 10:46 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Ed V Offline
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Howard City, MI
Allan
If this actually comes to be I would commit to 4 sets. If I read you correct this will be a complete cassette complete with forks selector cam etc.
I may be able to get more people interested I will have to do some asking around at the road race circles

Last edited by Ed V; 07/31/13 12:27 pm.
#499706 - 07/30/13 11:00 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: DoubleDiamond]  
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Ian Clifton Offline
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Rotherham, UK
Originally Posted By: DoubleDiamond
In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.


I feel I have to disagree.. If you only rode the A65 on the flat, then 4 gears would be suitable, but to enable you to keep the revs at an optimimum on hills etc, 5 gears would improve things.. My 2c


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

#499710 - 07/30/13 11:50 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: DoubleDiamond]  
Joined: May 2013
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted By: Ed V
Allan
If this actually comes to be I would commit to two sets. If I read you correct this will be a complete cassette complete with forks selector cam etc.
I may be able to get more people interested I will have to do some asking around at the road race circles


From the info I got from SRM and P+M I believe this to be true. I will make a second call to Quaife and confirm this. Possibly later today.

Originally Posted By: Ian aka Frank
Originally Posted By: DoubleDiamond
In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.


I feel I have to disagree.. If you only rode the A65 on the flat, then 4 gears would be suitable, but to enable you to keep the revs at an optimimum on hills etc, 5 gears would improve things.. My 2c


I can see where DD is coming from, but a lot of it is to do with riding style etc.

My personal intentions are to fit a taller gearbox sprocket (or smaller FD sprocket) which with my other mods will be fine with the torque the bike can produce, however the tall the gearing, the taller first gear etc becomes and becomes a pig in traffic. I will also ask Quaife if they can provide me with gear ratios, for my own benefit I can plot a table giving me the RPM drop between each gear.


Originally Posted By: DoubleDiamond
Hi Allan,

Yes this sounds interesting. However, even at 1,200 it is still very expensive when compared to the current value of an A65.

The other matter will be the necessary casing design and machining to add in the extra gear selector fork as well as a new quadrant needed to effect selection.

If I were looking for a change to the current A65 'box, I might want to look at the possibility of alternative ratios to give a more even change, especially between 3rd and top, where the change is quite small.

In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.

What might be of greater interest to A65 owners is a new aluminium NIKASIL lined cylinder barrel which could be available in 650 or 700/750cc variants. That product should have a significantly bigger market and be potentially more 'useful' to A65 owners when compared to the technical problems and costs associated with a 5 speed 'box.

Incidentally, my very late T140 ('87 Harris Bonneville) has a NIKASIL barrel and it works very well too.

As ever just my thoughts.


I can fully see you point of view, for someone that just wants a nice running bike to do the "Sunday club run" on, this is going to be more than what it is worth. I personally can see the group of people buying this kit are:
Those who cover a lot of mileage
Those that don't intend on selling the bike or at least not for a long time
Race riders, circuit or LSR
etc.

As always your thoughts are apreciated bigt


beerchug
#499711 - 07/30/13 11:57 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Ian Clifton]  
Joined: Aug 2012
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 301
Hampshire, England
Originally Posted By: Ian aka Frank
Originally Posted By: DoubleDiamond
In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.


I feel I have to disagree.. If you only rode the A65 on the flat, then 4 gears would be suitable, but to enable you to keep the revs at an optimimum on hills etc, 5 gears would improve things.. My 2c


Fair point. I should have been more specific by saying that the engine has a reasonably flat torque curve, thereby maybe making a 5 speed box desirable but not essential.


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499719 - 07/30/13 1:26 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Gear ratios

1st- 2.294 :1
2nd- 1.698 :1
3rd- 1.373 :1
4th- 1.235 :1
5th 1:1

Comes assembled with cam plate and selector fork

No known mods required.


beerchug
#499720 - 07/30/13 1:40 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Posts: 301
Hampshire, England
Allan,

Are there any known prototypes in existence? If so perhaps it would be possible to see a photo or a 3D rendition maybe?

BTW std. ratios are:-

1st- 2.03 :1
2nd- 1.47 :1
3rd- 1.10 :1
4th- 1.00 :1
5th- ---

(Hence my earlier comment re the small increment from 3rd to 4th)


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499723 - 07/30/13 1:58 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: DoubleDiamond]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,200
Semper Gumby Offline
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Semper Gumby  Offline
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Atlanta, GA USA
Jeeze. I'd be interested in one. The North Georgia Montains are begging for a 5 speed box. Please put me on the list.


Gaggle of BSAs
a Honda
an old BMW
and a Montesa
Parking lot Elf in training
#499725 - 07/30/13 2:07 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Think those are the CR gear sets for the early A65's

I'm not sure about first but the rest are std

2.51:1????
1.6:1
1.14:1
1:1 (naturally)

As I say, I'll have to confirm first gear. For me and the output gears I want, the lower first can be the better, and I may be able to get Quaife to change this???

However, if the majority prefer the ratios as listed, I'll happily go with that.


Afaik, the A65 Quaife box has been in existence for some time and quite possibly some members here have them in their bikes, any reviews on it are great fully received.


beerchug
#499730 - 07/30/13 2:39 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Ian Clifton Offline
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Ian Clifton  Offline

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Posts: 547
Rotherham, UK
Originally Posted By: Allan Gill
Gear ratios

1st- 2.294 :1
2nd- 1.698 :1
3rd- 1.373 :1
4th- 1.235 :1
5th 1:1

Comes assembled with cam plate and selector fork

No known mods required.


Lower 1st would suit me as I have to slip the clutch on uphill starts with the 21T front sprocket!!


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

#499731 - 07/30/13 2:57 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
Joined: Aug 2012
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 301
Hampshire, England
My apologies...

CLOSE ratios are:-

1st- 2.03 :1
2nd- 1.47 :1
3rd- 1.10 :1
4th- 1.00 :1

STANDARD ratios are:-

1st- 2.51 :1
2nd- 1.60 :1
3rd- 1.144 :1
4th- 1.00 :1

And the 5 speed R3v/T150v/(T140v) ratios are:-

5th - 1.00
4th - 1.19
3rd - 1.40
2nd - 1.82
1st - 2.59


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499734 - 07/30/13 3:20 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
Joined: Aug 2006
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No Name Man Online content
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SE Ohio
I too am interested...gap between 2nd and 3rd more annoying with 21 tooth. I have wanted another gear since, oh, about 1969.

Bill


69 A65T
71 B50T
85 K100RS
54/59 A10SR
69 B44VS
71 A65FS
Too much moderation is bad for you.

#499735 - 07/30/13 3:21 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Hampshire, England
OK...

I too have just spoken to Quaife Ltd. and they do apparently have a small but limited number of these gearboxes in stock.

They were originally designed many years ago by the founder of the Quaife company so the drawings are all on paper hence they don't have anything they could email right now. They were used on racing machines so the design is clearly proven on race engines and its apparently a straight swap for the current gearbox - including quadrant, main shaft (incl. taper), selector forks, bearings, etc etc.

The one off price I was quoted was GBP2,100 plus tax (20% in the UK). I did not get a discounted price for a larger quantity as the sales guy would need to speak to one of the directors for that.

The gear ratios given to me are as posted by Allan. I also don't see why they wouldn't deal with the public directly however, for a bulk purchase that of course presents a potential risk, hence I can see why they and potential purchasers might well prefer to do it through an approved/trusted supplier such as P&M.

HTH.


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499741 - 07/30/13 3:50 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
From what I understood, the item on the shelf was from a small batch made, the remaining few are the ones which didn't get bought and Quaife prefered to keep the price than discount to clear the shelf.

I couldn't remember when talking to P&M if that 2500 was inc vat or not, and it was an about cost at that (2420 inc vat to be precise, possibly plus postage too)

I can't see P&M selling it for any more than Quaife directly as with P&M being a distributor he will quite possibly get a retailers discount. If Srm etc wishes to increase this order then it would make sense to everyone and a more viable purchase to make one large bulk order. Depending on the cost I would be prepared to buy 3 of these, the second being for another motor I am hoping to build, and a 3rd to make the orders up for a better price all round and I have one hell of a many riding year left in me, I'd rather have one on my shelf than go through all this again.

However, I am quite prepared to be the middle man and collect names ( and even deposits if it comes to that) to get the order numbers correct, if one person registers interest with me and then with P&M, things get confused. Alternately speak to P&M, but tell me that is what you have done. As I mentioned brfore the only profit I will be making is by getting enough sales through to make my box and everyone elses cheaper.


beerchug
#499744 - 07/30/13 3:52 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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DoubleDiamond Offline
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DoubleDiamond  Offline
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Hampshire, England
Allan,

Can you PM me please?

I tried but you are apparently over your message limit! :-)


BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75
Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
#499746 - 07/30/13 4:46 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Dave, pm sent

Last edited by Allan Gill; 07/30/13 4:48 pm.

beerchug
#499751 - 07/30/13 5:09 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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run990 Offline
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lancashire united kingdom
although its out of my price range the prices mentioned sound cheap for a special batch of gear clusters & forks etc. a few of my mates take part in classic racing & the prices are small change compared to there outlays for fancy manx & goldie boxes.it the gearboxes will be allowed in classic events there are probably a few sidecar races who would want a set.i bet it would cost similar money to remanufacture a standard gearbox.now if you can find someone to cast a set of crankcases with a ball race on the timing side & a more efficient oil pump i might be tempted to max out the bank account.

#499758 - 07/30/13 6:09 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: DoubleDiamond]  
Joined: Jul 2012
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JER.Hill Online content
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JER.Hill  Online Content
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi Double Diamond (and anyone interested)

I'm presently having 10 alloy barrels cast, should get them around mid August, these will then need to be machined.
Bore size can be standard or 79mm. Barrel height can be machined to suit standard or 89mm stroke with up to 6.4 inch long rods if wished. Still need machining cost to workout a price, but a ball park figure should be around 740 GBP for the barrel and head bolts/studs. I'll not get into supplying pistons as there is such a variation in cost cast/forged, it's a mine field. You supply me with a piston and I'll get the barrels Nikasil coated to suit. These barrels will be at least half the weight of the original.

feel free to get in touch

John

#499762 - 07/30/13 7:03 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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JER.Hill Online content
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JER.Hill  Online Content
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi

Forgot to mention that there is no VAT to be added.

John

#499765 - 07/30/13 7:38 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
If they were A65 barrels I would be very interested. I could supply my own headbolts (3/8 BSF, same as A10)

Last edited by Allan Gill; 07/30/13 7:42 pm. Reason: added a bit

beerchug
#499782 - 07/30/13 8:58 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Lightning Offline
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Lightning  Offline
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England
I've got to laugh at Quaife they are a complete bunch of t**ts, I mailed Len Unwin 4 years ago this is his mail.

We do not make any BSA gearboxes. The cost involved in making a one off would be and I am guessing, in the region of 25000 not something that is really practical.
We do make specialist boxes for Norton and gearkits for Triumph, Velocette, Vincent and all the Japanese companies but all these parts have been made for customers who have exclusive rights to sell them and hence order in quantities which makes it a more practical proposition. If any of this is of interest please get back to me and I will be able to give you more details.
Kind regards
Len Unwin
Quaife Technical Sales

Anyway I'm glad someone got some sense out of them, put me down for a 5 speed box.

Last edited by Lightning; 07/30/13 9:55 pm.
#499786 - 07/30/13 9:30 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Will do, might be worth just editing the 13th word on your post, it's very informative but might get removed by the moderator with the word it contains. Great opening line though LOL.

I'll give it a week before I make a dedicated move, give chance for the racing lads to get interested, if anyone needs any more time, just say.

Also if anyone has any preference to where the gearsets should be, please throw it in the mix.

I'll add a chart and my ratio predictions in a bit.


I am really interested to know if anyone has used these boxes of old, if they have run into any issues and if they will take hard punishment (Frank has already told me I am ideal for testing the box for its robustness. I took that as a compliment although he didn't see it that way grin ). Also does anyone know if these boxes are running needle bearings and ball bearings or bush and bearings???


beerchug
#499804 - 07/30/13 11:53 pm Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Posts: 316
JER.Hill Online content
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JER.Hill  Online Content
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Forfar, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Allan Gill
If they were A65 barrels I would be very interested. I could supply my own headbolts (3/8 BSF, same as A10)


Hi Allan

To be honest, I've not really considered anyone just wanting to go for a standard 75mm bore to save on the head bolts/studs and have therefore not done any pull tests to check on the 3/8" BSF thread to support that, although I can probably do this, which would reduce the cost a little.
I can't post any photo's at the moment, but they will look more like the Devimead/SRM barrel with 6 fins rather than the 8 fin BSA style, I went this way to get a better finish between the fins and hopefully make it easier to mould/cast and reduce sand stuck being to the castings.

regards

John

#499851 - 07/31/13 9:23 am Re: BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes [Re: Allan Gill]  
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Posts: 4,533
Allan Gill Offline
Allan Gill  Offline



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Posts: 4,533
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Hi John,

Keeping to a 650 is a personal thing, for me a 750 whilst not only being a little more powerful would have me competing in the 750 class bikes (with the intentions I have with my bike) If I was to go for a alloy barrel I would look at going for a 74.5mm bore (same as Push Rod Tom) which would bring the bikes CC from 654 to about 645cc (I think Tom is running an Iron cylinder and he may be interested too in the alloy version).

I would be looking for a shorter barrel than the standard A65, in the style that the A50 used which was same Rod and stroke lengths but the pin height in the piston is higher.

If this is a go-er I will find out some measurements.

One thing I am really fussy about is the fin shape, I completely dislike the SRM/Devimead shape of barrel which has been squared off at the front. Thats me being picky LOL


beerchug
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