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T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! #499388
07/28/13 6:01 pm
07/28/13 6:01 pm
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
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Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Rugby,United Kingdom
Hi, some of you will remember some posts from me over the last couple of years regarding my T140V running issues.Got fed up with getting nowhere last year and parked it (before I destroyed it....seriously!!!)Hoping for some more wisdom please guys....Restored the bike about three years ago and have never had her running right. Earlier this year I had another go and for a while she seemed to be ok..ish!! still temperamental at starting, but when running seemed fine until I got home from work a couple of weeks ago and she stalled in the drive and would not start again. Put it down to the fact that she did'nt like starting when hot and just pushed her in the garage. Next day I got her to start but as soon as i give her any throttle misfires real bad, like she struggling to run on one cylinder.Any way, jumping forward a little...Decided it got to be ignition (as I've pissed about with the carb's more times than I can remember!!!) So just fitted a new Tri-spark EI, Tri-Spark 6V coils, new N3 plugs, new leads...and...still no change(could put a lotta swear words here!!!)So what gives guys???
Seems as though right pipe is a little hotter than left after a few sec's, HT testers are both flashing, removed plugs (after a few sec's and left is wet and a little 'dirty', right is dry and clean!! Mk1 Amals have been cleaned (loads of times) including 'poking' the idle jet through.New needles (set at stock setting) new needle jets, main jets,floats(0.80" down from bowl edge) float needles and slides. (all genuine AMAL)
Slides open simultaneously and the mixture screws are one and a half turns out (choke IS off)
Re-checked all the connections
Think that covers it... I am seriously at my wits end, if bike had not cost me so much, it would be in the quarry now... But I want to sort it and enjoy it so any help would be hugely appreciated....
Oh, new EI replaced a Boyer Micro digital (new at rebuild!)
Thanks Jel

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Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499394
07/28/13 6:36 pm
07/28/13 6:36 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,082
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Scotland
Quote:
the mixture screws are one and a half turns out


Doubt its your problem but that is a starting point only, once the engine is warm you adjust for best tickover speed and then take the tickover speed down using the throttle stop screws. Each carb will end up with a different number of turns out.

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499399
07/28/13 6:54 pm
07/28/13 6:54 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,558
Maui Hawaii
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Maui Hawaii
I always start with the simple cheap things first. Keep a couple of sets of fresh plugs around. When the symptoms start, change them. I've seen too many sparkplug lead shorts to count, so that gets attention right away. Switches on these bikes get old and funky but most of them can be cleaned. I've diagnosed these kinds of problems before the bike has coasted to a stop just by popping off the gas cap. (blocked vent)
Fine rust in the tank will ruin your day also.
I've had two bikes in the last year chew and swallow the intake gaskets.....?!?
Weak charging systems are a real bugaboo on these old bikes. I use a volt meter on the handlebar just to monitor things. You'd be surprised how many faults can be diagnosed by just watching that thing.
And patience. This is the key ingredient. And persistence. Also, the best tool I have is this forum.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 07/29/13 1:52 am.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499404
07/28/13 7:22 pm
07/28/13 7:22 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,776
ohio
shel Online content
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ohio
Have you tried connecting your EI directly to the battery? this will take old wiring and switches out of play.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499414
07/28/13 8:19 pm
07/28/13 8:19 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,193
Magnolia, TX
H
htown Online content
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Magnolia, TX
Three different bikes, Triumph, Norton and BSA, same symptoms, intermittent poor running, hard to start and dying.
Would come and go with no rhyme or reason. In all three cases it was the ignition switch.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
2-1974 Norton Commandos
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499416
07/28/13 8:24 pm
07/28/13 8:24 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,776
ohio
shel Online content
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That's my thinking as well, htown. dodgey connection or a dirty switch.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: shel] #499436
07/28/13 11:04 pm
07/28/13 11:04 pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 944
New Zealand
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+1. Check what the EI box is actually getting for voltage. The feed from the battery has to go through a number of connectors plus ignition switch, fuse, kill button, etc so there's quite a bit of scope for voltage drop, which EI are particularly susceptible to. Remember also, the ground return wire/s are part of the SAME CIRCUIT.

Just recently I saw a miniature LED voltmeter and thought how good it would be wired to the power feed at the EI box and ground. Go for a ride and see if volts move out of acceptable range under all conditions. Just a thought and I haven't tried this.

How old is the battery?

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: shel] #499437
07/28/13 11:07 pm
07/28/13 11:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 421
Western NY
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Pete Suchawreck Offline
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Western NY
I had a similar problem with my T140. I installed a Pazon. Turned out the battery wasn't being charged enough to provide good spark. Run and die, acted like it was starving for fuel. With the battery charged it started and ran fine. The short was in the ignition switch.

Last edited by Pete Suchawreck; 07/28/13 11:08 pm.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499438
07/28/13 11:09 pm
07/28/13 11:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 43
colorado
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coloradobob Offline
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colorado
1:Instant/easy battery check: see if turn signals work and horn honks.
2: Drain float bowls and check flow.
3: Change plugs.
4: Spritz of carb cleaner into carb mouths, throttle open.
5: Kick engine over with battery charger connected to 1st coil lead and ground.
6: More beer
Bob

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Excalibur] #499515
07/29/13 8:14 am
07/29/13 8:14 am
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
thanks for the replies,
tryed new plugs straight away, champion N3, and NGk B8's, no change. also changed leads and caps. New (better quality) ignition switch has been fitted. Wiring should be ok as new loom was fitted at rebuild, kill switch has been by-passed all together. Getting full voltage to EI. One of the reasons I changed to the Tri-Spark is because apparantly they will work even with voltage as low as 7 volts!!

Banging my head on the wall because i feel I have covered everything!!!

thanks guys...

Last edited by Jel; 07/29/13 8:15 am.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499518
07/29/13 8:54 am
07/29/13 8:54 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,471
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi,

With respect, that the problem appears to be with the left cylinder would rule out most of the electrics, simply because most of the electrics - battery, wiring, ignition switch, e.i., low-tension supply to the coils, etc. - is common to both cylinders. You say you've replaced the plugs, HT caps and leads? With known good ones? 'Fraid simply throwing money at the problem - buying new stuff - doesn't in itself guarantee a solution, ask me how I know this. frown Have you swapped one component at a time to see if the problem moves from one cylinder to the other? Have you used a Volt- or multi-meter to check that the Volts leaving the battery are actually arriving at the e.i. and not being lost at some dodgy connection en route? Do the e.i. and the coils have proper dedicated return cables to battery +ve, not just to the nearest bit of metal?

Turning to the carbs., again have you tried swapping them to see if the problem moves from one side to the other? Or, if swapping's impossible, have you tried another known good (not necesarily new) carb.? Have you actually sized the jets - as advised by John Healy in a number of posts - as opposed to just cleaning them? Along with this, have you checked that the pilot jet cross-drilling is clear?

Have you done a compression check?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Stuart] #499529
07/29/13 11:58 am
07/29/13 11:58 am
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Rugby,United Kingdom
Hi Stuart,
I have checked voltage to the EI and it is ok. plugs brand new, N3 and B8ES (tried both!). Leads are champion carbon fibre moulded at both end ones, but have also tried copper core leads. Also brand new NGK caps.Tri-Spark EI has Y/B wire to live switched feed, B/W wire to one 6V coil (+) link wire to other coil (-) and wire from this coil (+) to earth... have put this wire to battery positive (earth!) and also tried connecting it to chassis (makes no difference)It also has an earth wire in the stator housing straight to the pillar bolt. Everything in the carb's has been re-newed with genuine AMAL parts including jets. I have poked the idle jet through with a 'same size' guitar wire many times, but will do again...Not done compression test, not got the equipment but will do this...
Interesting comment about the prob' being on the left cylinder. the left hand plug was always blacker and sootier than the right when she was running and I could never change that whatever I did (change jets, mixture etc...). Left plug is now wet and a little dirty after 10/20 seconds of running and right plug dry and completly clean.. so is left not burning the fuel or is the right not getting any???
Both pipe headers are hot but I think the right side is hotter??
Could it be a valve prob'???
thanks for the reply...

Jel

Last edited by Jel; 07/29/13 12:49 pm.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499531
07/29/13 12:09 pm
07/29/13 12:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted By: Jel
Left plug is now wet and a little dirty after 10/20 seconds of running and right plug dry and completly clean.. so is left not burning the fuel or is the right not getting any???


Is the plug flat-black sooty or glossy/shiny?

"I'm just looking for clues at the scene of the crime...." Joe Walsh

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: JubeePrince] #499536
07/29/13 12:47 pm
07/29/13 12:47 pm
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Rugby,United Kingdom
Hi Steve,thanks for the reply..
As you probably know I have never had this bike running right and all the time I had the Boyer fitted the plugs were black, right one slightly, but the left very black (dry and sooty, flat)Now the left is wet and getting black in the wetness...sorry, not the best description!!! but the right is dry and clean. This is after only running for a very short time as it misfires too bad to take for a run!!!

Jel

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499556
07/29/13 6:02 pm
07/29/13 6:02 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,471
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Scotland
Hi Jel,

Originally Posted By: Jel
Tri-Spark EI has
B/W wire to one 6V coil (+) link wire to other coil (-) and wire from this coil (+) to earth

I hope you actually mean "B/W wire to one 6V coil (-) link wire from this coil (+) to other coil (-) and wire from this coil (+) to
[battery positive]"?

Originally Posted By: Jel
Also brand new NGK caps.

Resistor or non-resistor? If resistor caps (black), with non-resistor plugs; if non-resistor caps (brown), with resistor plugs?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Stuart] #499570
07/29/13 7:58 pm
07/29/13 7:58 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,479
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
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Originally Posted By: Stuart
Originally Posted By: Jel
Also brand new NGK caps.

Resistor or non-resistor? If resistor caps (black), with non-resistor plugs; if non-resistor caps (brown), with resistor plugs?


Black or red (OK, a brownish-red after they've got hot) NGK caps can be resistor type.

http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/files/NGK_Spark_Plug_Covers.pdf

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499662
07/30/13 3:28 am
07/30/13 3:28 am
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 976
palo alto,ca.
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az-idea Offline
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....Your running Amals...?....It sounds like your too Rich on the Pilot or Main..?....State Sizes of jets an maybe someone with AMAL Exp. will Sort it out ...

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: az-idea] #499692
07/30/13 8:07 am
07/30/13 8:07 am
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Rugby,United Kingdom
ooops!.. sorry Stuart, EI is wired ok....as you have corrected, got my + and - the wrong way round.

have NGK 5000 OHM resister caps fitted (new)

AMAL... standard .190 main jets. Started with .210 as recommended by Norman Hyde with their half-race camshafts (which are fitted), but came down to .200 and now .190 as I too believed I was running too rich!!! (no difference!!!

.106 needle jet

New needle set in no1 position (top, leanest)

All new,genuine AMAL parts...

Cheers Jel

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499722
07/30/13 1:47 pm
07/30/13 1:47 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,142
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Is there no one reading this who lives within easy traveling distance of Jel?
Anyone in the Coventry/Leicester/Banbury triangle?
This sounds to me to be the sort of problem where two heads together on the spot might well soon sort it out.
Sorry, Jel, a bit far away for me now---but I used to live in Grandborough!

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Tridentman] #499732
07/30/13 3:01 pm
07/30/13 3:01 pm
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Rugby,United Kingdom
Hi Trident man,
have got a guy from the Meriden branch of Triumph owners club coming round tonight with his compression tester. That should tell me if I have a prob' in that area. But yeah maybe him being the 'second' head could spot something stupid that I'm just too stoopid to see!!!!! Will post the results when I have them.....
Grandborough eh? Just down the road from me...You must be familiar with the Shoulder of Mutton??? Do you miss the 'warm' beer??!!

thanks for the reply...Jel

Last edited by Jel; 07/30/13 3:03 pm.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499754
07/30/13 5:44 pm
07/30/13 5:44 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,142
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Yes--very familiar with the "Shoulder of Mutton"-remember used to go to church for a carol service on Christmas Eve and then head to the Shoulder lead by the vicar to drink until after midnight!
In those days no problems with closing times--the village cop was in there drinking with the rest of us.
Happy days!----and yes--the thing I miss most living in US is the warm bitter beer.
So--where do you live?
Best of luck with the bike!

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Tridentman] #499761
07/30/13 6:47 pm
07/30/13 6:47 pm
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
J
Jel Offline OP
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Jel  Offline OP
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Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
Hi,
Just done compression test, left cylinder going up to about 150 PSI, Right cylinder only to about 100PSI. Any ideas what that could mean regarding the symtoms with the plugs described in earlier posts??
No offence Tridentman, don't want to be too precise with where I live online as lotta things gone missing due to bad people picking up info that way...(know people who've had experience, so please forgive my paranoia!!) but pretty close to Grandborough...Dunchurch area.....
Yeah...the good ol' days..leaving the country pub in the early hours, full of beer,on an icy night with crap tyres trying to remember the way home.....not sure how I survived really....

Anyway... looks like a strip down doesn't it????? but any advice before I start would be appreciated guys...

thanks Jel....

Last edited by Jel; 07/31/13 8:16 am.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499766
07/30/13 7:46 pm
07/30/13 7:46 pm
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Posts: 1,611
Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Online content
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Did you check your tappet clearances ?
During compression test you were supposed to put some oil in your weaker cylinder to find out the culprit of low compression - did you do it ?
It would be a good idea to measure your needle jets, very small difference in size could screw your lower revs range quite completely.

Last edited by Adam M.; 07/30/13 7:48 pm.
Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Jel] #499810
07/31/13 1:12 am
07/31/13 1:12 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,142
New Jersey USA
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Jel--no offence taken--I understand that we all have to be careful these days----too many scum around.

Re: T140 STILL.....Won't run right!!!!! [Re: Adam M.] #499847
07/31/13 8:15 am
07/31/13 8:15 am
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Posts: 191
Rugby,United Kingdom
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Jel Offline OP
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Hi Adam,
Have checked the tappet clearances several times. clearances (with half-race camshafts fitted!) should be Inlet;.006" Exhaust;.008" and they are spot on...
Haven't got anything to check the needle jet size with, but they are new genuine AMAL and replacing the original ones with these made no difference!!
No never put oil in cylinder
Would like an idea of what the 'culprit' could be and if it give me the problems I am experiencing? Will strip down but want to know what I will be looking for????????
Hoping to get the bike into work next week (if I can get a van!) where hopefully I will be able to have a cylinder leakage test done....
Cheers Jel....

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