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#499232 - 07/27/13 2:30 pm Champion vs NGK
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
This has been answered before but I can't find it.
I need new plugs and Champion N3's are hard to find locally.
Crossover chart says NGK B8ES but memory says this is wrong.
Clarification please and thanks!
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1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499237 - 07/27/13 3:06 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Bruce Martin Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 127
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada.
B8ES plugs are equivalent to N3s. B7ESs, equivalent to N4s, can be used if the bike needs a hotter plug.

Bruce
_________________________
1937 Ariel Red Hunter 500
1970 Triumph Bonneville

Making the scene with the gasoline

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#499257 - 07/27/13 5:22 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
JubeePrince Offline
Life member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 6097
Loc: Back on the mainland!
Not all plugs and bikes are created equal.

On my bike, I have found that NGK 8's ran a tad cooler than the Champ N3's and the NGK 7's a bit hotter.....

Now, if NGK just made a 7.5 cool laugh

I've had the same set of Champ N3's running for a few years and a few thousand miles now...seems my bike likes that plug the best.

Steve
_________________________
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...

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#499270 - 07/27/13 8:09 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JubeePrince]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Thanks Guys,
Last August I finally fitted the Tri-Spark ignition kit and have been running it with the same Champion N3C (Copper) plugs that were already in it.

The Tri-Spark was timed with a strobe whereas the old points were static timed.

Now , a year later, have been seeing a stumbling sputter that was intermittent but now is more pronounced at idle on up.
[previously the bike would start up and run just fine for a 4 mile jaunt to house #2 and sit for an hour or so, on re-start the bike would skip a few beats on initial take-off and then settle down]

Am focusing now on the Mikuni carbs which have 5 yrs. old air filters that appear to be the washable type but am not sure. .

Right now the filters are off and I have re-set the air/fuel mixture's and ridden it as such but the stumbling has gotten worse.

So it seems a reasonable effort to try a new set of plugs and see what happens, hence the posted question.

Notwithstanding the Ethanol gas we have, the Mikuni manual method to set the air/fuel mixture is to set the carb at 20 % higher than idle rpm and adjust in or out until highest rpm is found, this works and the carbs respond to it.
Next step is to bring the carb back down to idle rpm and do the same adjustment for highest rpm, this step is not so easy to discern. . .
Then ,of course, the other carb has to be adjusted the same way.

Some history:
AGM battery is now about 5 years old and will show 13+ volts after riding with the headlamp off.

Tri-Spark unit is also old as it sat in the toolbox for 3 years before it was fitted- this unit came from Steve Kelley's own bike to replace a unit that had failed due to insufficient clearance from the stator to the rotor.

The cylinder head has never been off since my time and I suspect a lot of carbon build-up as it always seemed to run rich with the points setup.

That is in a nutshell where I'm at, at the moment.

Edit info: the bike is almost 30 yrs. old since new to me and so are the aftermarket "Dunstall Decibel" mufflers which could be rusted out inside?
Maybe I should try removing them just to make sure of no restrictions.
?


Edited by JBMorris (07/27/13 8:25 pm)
Edit Reason: mufflers
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499279 - 07/27/13 9:40 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
desco Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 1429
Loc: Bishop, Calif.
http://www.gabma.us/page2.htm

Scroll down the tech articles for a few simple tests.
I use B7ES and find them quite satisfactory.
A pair of Denso IW22's cured a high altitude intermittent misfire on the 68 I never could figure out.
Don't know anything about Mikuni's but they must have some orifices that would benefit from some spray carb cleaner.
If the bike sits a lot, dump the fuel into your car and fill up with fresh gas.
Seems to me Mikuni's have some internal rubber parts the could be rotted. Maybe someone who knows can help out.
If you only ride it 4 miles at a time take it out on the highway and run the crap out of it.
A 5 year old battery would be my first suspect.


Edited by desco (07/28/13 11:44 am)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.

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#499282 - 07/27/13 10:29 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: desco]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Quote:
A pair of Denso IW22's cured a high altitude intermittent misfire on the 68 I never could figure out.

Desco,
Interesting PLUG choice.
How did you arrive at that plug to be an alternate to the normal N3 Champion?

Just found this. . .


Edited by JBMorris (07/27/13 10:38 pm)
Edit Reason: Google search. . .
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499298 - 07/28/13 12:39 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JubeePrince]
Stuart Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 6029
Hi,

Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
if NGK just made a 7.5

They do, it's called the B8EVX (used to be just B8EV), been using 'em for decades. grin The V has a wider heat range than the equivalent S.

Haven't tried the resistor BR8EIX.

Originally Posted By: desco
Denso

Had a bad experience with Nippon Denso plugs. frown

Using N3 or B8ES in the T160, they'd last barely 3-4000 miles before one or other would start misfiring, when the manuals all said I should get 10,000. frown A blast on a plug cleaning machine would keep 'em going for a bit longer but essentially I was on a hiding to nothing and I got into the habit of changing the plugs every service. frown

Once I changed to B8EV, not only did I get the 10,000 miles out of a set, I got a noticeable (2-3 mpg) fuel consumption improvement too. bigt

I moved to London and got a Jap bike for work (as a courier); looking for any fuel consumption improvement on that, NGK didn't do V equivalents for its 12mm plugs but ND did something similar so I fitted a pair. After about 3,000 miles, I began to get poor starting; called ND and they said, "Yes, you're supposed to change them every 3,000 miles." shocked Given I wasn't seeing any better mpg from the Jap bike with the expensive ND's with the unobtanium/costalotium alloy electrodes, that I should also change 'em every 3,000 miles, rather than the plain-Jane NGK's every 10,000, you can probably guess what I replaced the ND's with ... whistle Never tried ND's since in anything ...

Hth.

Regards,

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#499306 - 07/28/13 2:59 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Mark Z Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 3183
Loc: Owego, NY, USA
I get Champion N3s at Autozone. Seems like they'd have the same stock in CT?

The only other plugs I've ever tried were NGKs, but that was many years ago. My general recollection is that the Champions worked better for me, but there could have been other factors involved.
_________________________
Mark Z

'67 A65 Lightning (retired for now)
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

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#499308 - 07/28/13 3:07 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Mark Z Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 3183
Loc: Owego, NY, USA
I get Champion N3s at Autozone. Seems like they'd have the same stock in CT?

The only other plugs I've ever tried were NGKs, but that was many years ago. My general recollection is that the Champions worked better for me, but there could have been other factors involved.
_________________________
Mark Z

'67 A65 Lightning (retired for now)
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.

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#499331 - 07/28/13 9:49 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Pete R Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 3344
Loc: Vic. Australia
I think you'd find NGK B7ES would be OK if you keep your cruising speed below 90 mph,or only use equivalent power (or less) at lower speeds.

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#499341 - 07/28/13 11:18 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: Stuart]
JubeePrince Offline
Life member

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 6097
Loc: Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted By: Stuart
Hi,

Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
if NGK just made a 7.5

They do, it's called the B8EVX (used to be just B8EV), been using 'em for decades. grin The V has a wider heat range than the equivalent


Thanks, Stuart. Maybe I'll check those out after I wear out my N3's! wink

Cheers,

Steve
_________________________
'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...

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#499353 - 07/28/13 1:44 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JubeePrince]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Originally Posted By: Stuart
it's called the B8EVX

Hi Stuart,
Just did a search and found a reference back to Champion's:

CHAMPION GOLD PALLADIUM PLUGS N3G.
. . . something new to me!

Details about NGK B8EVX:
Threaddiameter: 14mm
Threadreach: 19mm
Seattype: flat
Hexsize: 21mm
Tipconfiguration: non projected
Construction: Platinum centre, tapered ground
Terminaltype: Removable


Details about Champion N3G:
Threaddiameter: 14mm
Threadreach: 19mm
Seattype: flat
Hexsize: 21mm
Tipconfiguration: non projected
Construction: Gold Paladium
Terminaltype: Removable
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499355 - 07/28/13 1:57 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Jack Adams Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 1024
Loc: Noblesville, IN
JB, if N3G's are new to you, you need to get out more. Jack

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#499359 - 07/28/13 2:14 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
desco Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 1429
Loc: Bishop, Calif.
@ JB

How did you arrive at that plug to be an alternate to the normal N3 Champion?

The good/bad thing about getting older is I CRS.
I think someone told me about them.
I do know they do what the ad says and they have been in for about seven years now.
_________________________
1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.

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#499361 - 07/28/13 2:31 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: desco]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Quote:
How did you arrive at that plug to be an alternate to the normal N3 Champion?

desco,
It came up as an alternate to the B8EVX mentioned by Stuart.

Jack- what plugs do you have in your 'Hot-Rod'special?
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499364 - 07/28/13 2:43 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Stuart Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 6029
Hi JB,

Originally Posted By: JBMorris
NGK B8EVX
Champion N3G

I went with B8EV originally 'cos they were easy to get hold of then, the stinkwheels like LC Yams and similar used 'em but even the local Triumph dealers stocked 'em. I've stuck with 'em and moved to the X but, if you can get N3G easier, go for it.

Hth.

Regards,

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#499370 - 07/28/13 3:20 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Irish Swede Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 793
Loc: Elburn, Ill. USA
I hope NGK plugs are of better quality now then they were back in 1966, when my Honda 305 scrambler came stock with them.
That bike would go through a pair of 'em within 2,000 miles. After going through two more pairs of the NGKs, I bought two pairs of AC plugs, and installed a pair. When I sold the bike 8,000 miles later, I gave the UNUSED second pair of AC plugs to the new owner.
The ones in the engine were still going strong.

I have stayed away from NGK plugs ever since.

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#499462 - 07/29/13 1:51 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: Irish Swede]
Old Cafe Racer Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 290
Loc: OZ
48 years is a long time... you need to get out more.

davy

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#499469 - 07/29/13 2:28 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Irish Swede Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 793
Loc: Elburn, Ill. USA
Maybe NGK plugs have gotten better, but for forty years I've wondered: If NGK plugs were all the Japanese had before 1942, how did their planes ever get to Pearl Harbor?

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#499484 - 07/29/13 3:11 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Jack Adams Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 1024
Loc: Noblesville, IN
JB, I'd like to tell you something exotic,but the truth is NGK B8ES and I can't remember when I last replaced them (at least a couple of years)and it never misses a beat. Jack

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#499523 - 07/29/13 10:05 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: Jack Adams]
Old Cafe Racer Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 290
Loc: OZ
I run NGK's in all 3 of my bikes, had one set in the 748 for 4 years no worries.

davy

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#499930 - 07/31/13 7:13 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: Old Cafe Racer]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Just slapped in a new set of NGKB8ES and still has a flat spot at 60 mph cruising speed .
Seems to be carb related or bad gas or throttle cable related- hard to say. .
Checked batt. voltage after and 13.3 volts with no headlamp for a short run.
None of the local auto-stores had them but the nearest bike shop had plenty, NGK a bit cheaper than Champ's- he only had N3C for sale, all his own Triumph's had NGK fitted.
Local Guru
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#499931 - 07/31/13 7:23 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
Hillbilly bike Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 1014
Loc: New York
I've seen dirty and or restrictive air filters cause the 60 mph flat spot.Take them off for a test run... Plug gap around .025?
_________________________
650 Triumph ECTA class record holder. 70 T120 750, 51 Willys truck and other Jeep vehicles.

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#499938 - 07/31/13 8:29 pm Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: Hillbilly bike]
JBMorris Online   content
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1315
Loc: Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Quote:
I've seen dirty and or restrictive air filters cause the 60 mph flat spot.

Thanks Hill-Bill,
They were off on this run and I am thinking of some type of Velocity Stack setup just for the hellofit!
Today was /is a beautiful clear day and no dust so did a quick run.
Added a bit of fuel stabilizer to the tank. . .
_________________________
1978 Bonneville T140V PX*****

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#500197 - 08/02/13 10:45 am Re: Champion vs NGK [Re: JBMorris]
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: The sunny South
IMHO, B8ES is too cold for any Brit bike. B7ES runs much, much better.

The modern NGK cross-ref chart shows B8ES as correct, but the older charts showed B7ES. It's like NGK engineers are going purely by cross-ref themselves without any testing. One simple trip around the block will show you that B8ES will simply not burn fuel in an efficient manner.

I agree that the cross-over from Champion to NGK is not 1:1. That is, they are not exact equivalents. Note that ~1965-1980 Triumphs cert Champion N3, but models from the early 60's referenced Champion N4, a hotter plug.

bigt
_________________________
Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Atlanta, GA
http://www.gabma.us/

The GABMA newsletter. What's on the back of your toilet?

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