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Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. #497613
07/13/13 2:14 pm
07/13/13 2:14 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
I know that this has been discussed before but I can't find anything in the search function.
Anyway what is the trick to getting the clutch cush drive rubbers in the spider. I put the large ones in first but there was very little room left for the small one's. So I tried compressing them and then freezing them for a few hours but they still would not go in.
I'm sure someone has an easy way of dealing with this issue. Any suggestions appreciated.


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.



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Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497614
07/13/13 2:34 pm
07/13/13 2:34 pm
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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P

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
You're on the right track.Big rubbers first,compress them to fit the small rubbers.
It helps to anchor the cush-drive spider in a vice.Find something that fits the centre splines and clamp it in the vice.It can be a piece of flat steel,handle of a spanner,head of a large bolt,piece of hexagon bar.
Put a filter wrench on the outside of the cush-drive to compress the rubbers.

Use some rubber grease,if you have it,to help the small rubbers slide into place.

Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497615
07/13/13 2:36 pm
07/13/13 2:36 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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John Healy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
Well, the most eloquent demonstration I have seen for the home mechanic was illustrated in one of Lumad's videos on u-tube. Do not assume that I approve of, recommend all of his videos, but his is a simple answer to something that has vexed the most competent Triumph mechanic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASe67Al5Mfo

All that I can add is to get a sample of the rubber lubricant P-80 (google it).

Disclaimer: Please read my comments about Lumad's videos in Vintage Bike.


Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497627
07/13/13 3:06 pm
07/13/13 3:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,369
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Posts: 4,369
Santa Barbara, California
That is a good demo video of the job, and using simple tools that the average guy can come up with.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497628
07/13/13 3:12 pm
07/13/13 3:12 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
Thanks Pete and John.
I just watched Lumnads video. I noticed he had a 3 spring hub. I have a 4 spring. There seems to be a lot less room in the 4 spring and I have an extra 2 rubbers to fit in. Maybe my rubbers are too big.
I'll try Lumnads method in the morning and see how we go.


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.



Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497630
07/13/13 3:43 pm
07/13/13 3:43 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,956
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Posts: 4,956
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Im with John, His methods do "get the job done" but I don't agree with them all. He does rightly note that there is wear on the spider and on the plates. The plates can be flatted off, however if you try this with the spider you will create a gap between the spider and the plate - which will cause some or even excessive wobble in the basket. It would be good practice to replace these components too, however if the outer part is worn and chatted, you might as well save all the effort and buy a complete hub. (The later hubs with the straight through bolt are an improvement and less likely to self destruct under use)

John: do you have any links to any of your Vintage Bike pages?


beerchug
Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497685
07/14/13 11:24 am
07/14/13 11:24 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
Success!!!!
Finally got them in. Using some of Lumnads technique along with a bit of a clout from a small rubber mallet they eventually popped in. I'll tell you what though they didn't just fall in like Lumnads. Anyway we're there now.
Just one more question, which are the screws/bolts that are prone to coming loose?
Thanks again.


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.



Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497692
07/14/13 1:32 pm
07/14/13 1:32 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,410
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Posts: 2,410
Bega NSW Australia
The little countersunk screws come loose/fall out, I drill through, braze nuts to the rear plate (they may need grinding a little for chainwheel clearance)and put together with allen headed bolts loctited in. Might need to grind the heads a little so they don't interfere with the spring cups, but it makes it a stronger set up. I bolt it all up without the rubbers to weld the nuts, then re-assemble with rubbers.


mark
Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497695
07/14/13 1:48 pm
07/14/13 1:48 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
That's great.
Thanks Mark.


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.



Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497697
07/14/13 2:01 pm
07/14/13 2:01 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
Beside investing in the proper tools, as a practical matter, anyone who does this job professionally owes it to himself, and the customer, to invest in P-80 rubber lubricant. It is a tool every mechanic should have on hand. Not only does it make this job easier, it also allows you to insert those pesky rubber seals that you have been destroying with a hammer and drift, and allow you to push them into place with your fingers.

When they replaced the six screws with bolts on the later three spring hub it was truly a big improvement. But there is no way to convert the four spring hub to bolts. I would never rebuild a Triumph that had the early hub without replacing it with the later hub with bolts. If I had to replace the rubbers on a four spring hub I would make sure that the hub and screws were free of oil and use Blue Loctite on them (no red as this is a part that WILL need routine maintenance). I would also make sure that they were set tight with a hand impact tool as Lumand did in the video. It is a confounded nuisance when these screws come loose, and they do if not installed properly.

In my view of the video one of the most important things to learn is how he made sure the screw driver bit was a press fit in the screw slot. I was taught that screw drivers are consumable. They should be modified so they have a secure fit in the screw slot. What should be a simple job, can be turned into a lot of unnecessary frustration when a loose fitting blade damages the screw slot. Before trying to remove a screw make sure the tool you are using is going to do the job.

While IMHO his frugality is beyond any reasonable limits, his understanding of how things work is something we should strive to observe, understand and dare I say it, celebrate. It is not what he does, but it is how he does it that draws me in when I watch his videos. Just my opinion.
John Healy


Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497698
07/14/13 2:12 pm
07/14/13 2:12 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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John Healy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
While brazing the inner plate might be a solution on a bike that sees limited use as a racer, the inner plate is hardened for a reason.

It is one of those parts that is in a heavy wear application. Welding will anneal the plate rendering it soft. As it barely does the job as it was made, softening it does not seem to be a solution where the bike is going to see daily use.

Once the inner plate wears it allows the hub to cock as it looks like it is doing in the picture. There seems to be a witness mark where the hub is rubbing the chain wheel. Is this true?


Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497700
07/14/13 2:20 pm
07/14/13 2:20 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
John I was using rubber lube,not P-80 though. A castor oil based lube I think from memory, but there was still no way I was going to push them in with my fingers. Even with my clutch basket locking tool and long extension and with the hub center locked in a piece of steel clamped in the vice.
I was curious whether a later 3 spring hub would fit the early basket. If/when I go through this again I think I will try to find myself a later hub.
John I watched another of Lumnad's videos on assembling the rest of the clutch and noticed that he fairly well slathered the bearings in grease. I just poured a bit of ATF over mine when all the bearings were in (on the bench)but am unsure if this is correct. I would have thought that the grease would eventually get washed away by ATF anyway and thought that centrifigul force would push the grease out into the plates.
What do you think?


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.



Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497704
07/14/13 2:43 pm
07/14/13 2:43 pm
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 451
Au
M
markoz Offline
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markoz  Offline
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M

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 451
Au
I like and use his videos, there is one where he assembles the complete clutch only to find he forgot the clutch spring bolts, his reaction was the same as mine. Ha

Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497707
07/14/13 2:57 pm
07/14/13 2:57 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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John Healy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
You gotta try P-80. You can get a free sample at their web site! It is water based.

I sent some to a noted engine builder in Dallas. They do a lot of Trident work and the rear chain wheel hub has 12 little rubbers in it. If you think its hard to do one with 4, try a Trident. It happened that he was about to do one when the package arrived. It was a job that you always waited until you were having a good day to do. Save up all of the psychic energy, check to see if all your stars are aligned, and prepare to do battle with the rubbers. To his amazement those pesky little rubbers just slide into place.

The later 3 spring hub will work. You will need to replace the related kit. You can get the same clamping pressure that you have with the 4 spring version by substituting the original springs (57-1560) with the later T120 springs (57-1830) or for more clamping force the T140 springs (57-4644).

Again, I am not a fan of Lumad's ways! I am though, a fan of his understanding of how to work with metal. When I watch his videos the hair on the bad of my head starts to twitch, but then I catch myself saying to myself, "did you see that!" What a eloquent solution to what to some is an impossible barrier. Watching his videos there are a lot of "love-hate" moments. I would like to meet him.

Many use a small amount of grease to retain the rollers during assembly without any problems. I find that with a little thought, it is not necessary. While a lot of people use it, I have never been one to use ATF in the primary. Never saw any need for it. Often it is used to try to treat a symptom of another problem with the clutch and doesn't really effect a cure.


Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: John Healy] #497721
07/14/13 6:04 pm
07/14/13 6:04 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,174
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted By: John Healy
If you think its hard to do one with 4, try a Trident. It was a job that you always waited until you were having a good day to do. Save up all of the psychic energy, check to see if all your stars are aligned, and prepare to do battle with the rubbers.

I must've gotten lucky. Only time I did the rubbers on a Trident I used dish soap and they went in with only a few choice words.

Originally Posted By: John Healy
I am not a fan of Lumad's ways! I am though, a fan of his understanding of how to work with metal. Watching his videos there are a lot of "love-hate" moments. I would like to meet him.

And, I would love to be listening round the campfire at this meeting. Both entertaining and informative. laugh


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497728
07/14/13 6:21 pm
07/14/13 6:21 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,258
arkansas
L
leon bee Offline
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leon bee  Offline
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L

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Posts: 3,258
arkansas
I guess shearer doesn't mind thread being sidetracked to talk about lunmad. For me, also, the standout moment of that video is him making sure the driver fits the screw head.

I had never watched one of his vids until the last time he got discussed here. Watched the one where he bangs away at exhaust pipe with his hammer handle. Then you see his finger reach down and check he didn't bust a fin off. Just like real life!

Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497744
07/14/13 6:59 pm
07/14/13 6:59 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
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John Healy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,205
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
Only time I did the rubbers on a Trident I used dish soap and they went in with only a few choice words.


Save those choice words, they will come in many later. Get some P-80 and teach your grandchildren how to fix a Triumph clutch hub.

Soap, in water, was my original solution, but no need for it with P-80. It is so slippery, that when you use it to lubricate a tire to install it, if you don't wait for it to evaporate, when you take off, the rim will slip inside the tire - with rim locks and all.

No, I don't own, or have stock in the company!!

Last edited by John Healy; 07/14/13 7:00 pm. Reason: disclaimer

Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: M Shearer] #497829
07/15/13 9:33 am
07/15/13 9:33 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,410
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
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Mark Parker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,410
Bega NSW Australia
The chainwheel in the photo is alloy and old, the marks are not from this hub which I think is square, but from little screws falling out before I started using bolts. The only problem with the 4 spring hub is it's a different depth in the spline so using it with later 3spring chainwheel and centre spline on the taper piece requires the end of the centre piece ground down a little so the nut and washer push on the outer cush hub and not on the centre piece allowing the hub to float on the spline.
If it's better not to weld the little nuts on for through bolts they could just be done up and loctited.


mark
Re: Help please. Clutch cush drive rubbers. [Re: markoz] #497831
07/15/13 9:49 am
07/15/13 9:49 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
M Shearer Offline OP
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M Shearer  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 930
Perth. Wild West Downunder.
Originally Posted By: markoz
I like and use his videos, there is one where he assembles the complete clutch only to find he forgot the clutch spring bolts, his reaction was the same as mine. Ha

Yes I saw that. Very funny.
Originally Posted By: leon bee
I guess shearer doesn't mind thread being sidetracked to talk about lunmad. For me, also, the standout moment of that video is him making sure the driver fits the screw head.

I had never watched one of his vids until the last time he got discussed here. Watched the one where he bangs away at exhaust pipe with his hammer handle. Then you see his finger reach down and check he didn't bust a fin off. Just like real life!

It's all good with me Leon.

Hub all back together and ready to go in.
Thanks everyone.


Mark F.
'52 ZB34 Gold Star.
'65 Lightning Rocket.
'74 Roadster Commando.




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