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#417584 - 02/08/12 2:06 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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John Healy Online content
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Stuart: This is not an area known for having a problem with this engine. If it was the engine sprocket nut there is a explanation and parts available to fix it.

It is difficult to see in the picture, but the nut looks like it is into the hub too far. The face of the nut should be approx. .400" away from the shoulder of the bearing race edge of the hub. If the main shaft is bottoming in the nut you will get this symptom. In a stock set-up this could only happen if one of the two spacers used are missing.


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#417666 - 02/08/12 9:24 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Hi Johm

Thats an intriguing theory ~ botoming on the main shaft thread and woudl certianly explain the issue..

Quote:
if one of the two spacers used are missing.


?

There is the thick washer under the actual nut and the spacer on the clutch housing.

(We have established that the chain wheel is an earlier version as there is a spacer on the clutch housing. So has been changed before my time .)

But thanks for your thought~ I am expecting new parts including a new second hand inner plate as mine has had a hard life .. again in a life before me !

One comment has been in regard to Loctite. I used 641 which is the option I had. But 641 is bearing/ shaft lock and might be appropriate. But still the issue does not hinge solely on what grade of Loctite I should have used ~ !

I will get some thread lock anyway ~ even the comment was made that I should use Blue and not red grade.

SO I will strip the whole thing and check the rivets for good measure and wait.
Cheers
SS


Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/08/12 9:39 pm.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#417676 - 02/08/12 11:00 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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John Healy Online content
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I use Loctite, but only after I am sure that the parts I am assembling are properly prepared and assembled. Then I only use it on parts know to be a problem. I wouldn't put the nuts on a Triumph main shaft or the rotor nut without it (blue).

There are several reason I have learned to hate Loctite. It isn't the product, but the people who misuse it.

a. The wholesale use often on parts that would have been a problem - for example cam pinion nuts. On Triumphs there are three nuts that absolutely require Loctite. Both ends of the transmission main shaft and the rotor nut on the crankshaft (blue). On the twins the three bolts holding the flywheel to the crankshaft (blue).
b. Selecting the wrong grade. This is usually the one with the most strength (red), or some other grade that affectively replaces brazing.
c. Using Loctite on parts that are heat treated that requires the part be heated to 400° F plus to get it to release. Doing so anneals the hardened part rendering it useless, but then of course it is reused.
d. Failing to understand how Loctite works and using it on common plated hardware, or aluminum without applying Loctite Primer (now available in stick form under part number 7088). Anyone routinely using Loctite on their race bikes with plated hardware should have a stick of primer and use it.
Stuart:
Measure the main shaft's thread as it extends past the securing washer and compare it with the depth of the threads in the nut. Also are there any signs (witness marks) at the bottom of the threads in the nut to indicate the end of the main shaft is hitting the bottom?
John


#417722 - 02/09/12 11:05 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Thanks John ~

I stripped the inner cover and clutch out. I did not check all sundry thee in but I can see it looks like the rivets are intact. But my gut feeling on the original inner cover was well founded as the oil seal seat has not delivered and there is oil seeping into the clutch section!

The seal seat was slightly damaged and obviously failed to do the job! I was never quite happy about it and we should have replaced it from the get go ~

Always follow your gut feeling eh !!

SO my well scored inner cover via E-Bay last week has panned out well. So I will fit that on arrival and clean up to restoration standard ~

Got a well qualified fitter/ tradesman from work is coming around on the weekend ~ "Gary" did the lightening of the clutch components for me ~ this has proven to be a very positive venture to date.

He is very interested in the bike and the issues I am having with the clutch and primary ~ and one more talented noodle is always an asset !

Keep you posted ~


ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#418041 - 02/11/12 11:39 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Okay !

Got down to the workplace mechanic/ fitter "Gary" to have a look as fresh eyes !

Result which has sparked off some debate about chain wheel retaining nut/s.

On close examination ~ the spacer has opposite surfaces.

Spoke with Gary W and email to Snibor ~ My suggestion is perhaps this bike chain wheel spacing issue is crucial as I am of the belief that the spacer was back to front and this caused the nut to unscrew ~ (???)

Maybe I am totally wrong as I am talking with some very knowledgabel triple folk here ~ but I figure we are dealing something a little extraordinary !

The spacer has an indented / concave side and opposite a lip which seemingly supports the nut buttrance~

OD ~ 28.50 mm

ID ~ 16.50 mm

Width~ 4.90 mm

And the opposite side with outer raised surface is supported by the internal lip of the chain wheel !! (??)




The concave effect I believe could NEVER be created by any individual and a length of bar attached to a 1/2 " socket ~ .. the threaded shaft would surely snap before that spacer went concave!



ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#418103 - 02/11/12 7:39 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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John Healy Online content
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I took the offending washer out of an donor T150 engine sitting is storage and checked the hardness. Using my Wilson Rockwell hardness tester with brale penetrator and a 150 lb load. It measured 32 on the "C" scale. It means that you could cut it with a file and fretting in place, from having a loose nut, would show some distress. But as long as everything was clamped up it would work as designed.

My washer showed a slight deflection of the metal with a bit of polishing, but it was insignificant to its use. What was clearly visible was the witness marks where the clamping washer laid against the hub's splines.

Again there was ever so slight sign of fretting (you could see it, but not feel it) where it contacted the hub's splines. You could also see the pattern of the hub's splines in the "crud/dirt" that was present when I took the nut off. My washer was clearly clamping the hub and had NO CONTACT with the splines on the shaft. The end of the shaft's splines sat at least .050" below the hub's washer perch.

Did you check to see if the shaft's splines extend past the washer perch face in the hub. What looks like is going on is the shafts splines are fretting the washer. Any wear, or fretting of the inside face of this washer should be toward the outside where the washer contacts the hub, not the inside.

A file is typically 40 on the "C" scale. So it was hardened during manufacture.


#418168 - 02/12/12 8:14 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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John
Quote:
Did you check to see if the shaft's splines extend past the washer perch face in the hub.


Yes I have checked and the cut off at the splines and thread is 24.36 mm ~ and the base of the chain wheel / spacer seat is flush or neat.

Now while not having a definitive answer yet , as almost every response the general consensus is that the washer is flat~

But I am still open to debate here. But despite that mine is concave and has a raised lip .

So with that in mind I argue that if this was placed upside down with the raised lip against the spline and thread abutment ~ then the convex effect would result in the outer edge would never fully apply full pressure to the chain wheel , even if this was a matter of .00's of an inch.

Couple this with a a slightly worn spine to chain wheel effect would surely result in a vibration which resulted in the nut backing off (??)


ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#418297 - 02/12/12 10:47 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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John Healy Online content
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The washer should be flat!

The only way that washer could be damaged on the inside is if the splined shaft is extending past the face of the hub where the washer sits.

The contact surfaces are from nut: Nut inner face to washer outer face - washer inner face to hub washer shoulder - hub inner face to spacing washer outer face - spacing washer inner face to outer cover of clutch assembly.

The contact surfaces of the washer in question. Nut bears on the inside of the outer face. The hub bears on the outside of the inner face. In normal use the inside inner surface should have nothing adjacent to it that could cause the indentation. This only happen if the splined shaft extends past the hub's outer washer perch.

All the answers are in the pictures above:
The witness mark on the outer face of the washer left by the nut is clearly visible.
There is NO witness mark on the outer edge of the face where the washer should be contacting the hub. The outer edge show no fretting or pressure mark at all.

INSTEAD we see massive fretting where the end of the splined shaft is contacting the inner edge of the washer. There should be no marks here at all!!
John


#420900 - 02/26/12 8:26 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Finally ~

I completed reassembly the primary including measuring the chain wheel spacing...

Got the Loctite 243 (blue) and set the splines and nut ~ the 243 also reduces back lash on Splines which I like.

Let sit for some 27 hours to set .

Replaced the (faulty) Tri-Spark module ~

And finally kicked the bike up .. ran up ~ all GOOD !

Clutch is perfect! So warmed it up and tuned the carbs .. Running like a bought one ~

(Putting another Vid on my U-Tube acc) Check that oil pressure ! Fantastic!

Have to yet put in some miles yet ~ weather is crap today ~ I now feel I once again a well experienced Trident primary ..

So after a stuck clutch ~ and finished with ~

1. New clutch plate

2. Lightened clutch basket and pressure plate

3. Self centring pull rod.

4. New S/H inner case plate

5. lightened idler gear

6. New Alloy chain wheel .

Warm up & run

7 Re-Tune (Bob’s) rebuild carbs ~

All GOOD !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSvwvt1C-...mp;feature=plcp



Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/26/12 8:28 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#422189 - 03/03/12 11:47 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Well after working, and a week of snotty weather I finally got out for short but excellent run tdoay ~

The bike ran superbly and every thing one would expect from a slightly sharpened triple of 1974 ~

What a ^&%&*% Ball !

The bike feels and sounds fan-bloody-tastic!!

Booked up for a run with some of the boys tomorrow morning early .. weather permitting ~

Last edited by Stuart SS; 03/03/12 11:51 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#429602 - 04/14/12 10:03 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Jimmy ~ thanks for the positive feed back ~

Well Easter was a classic far north QLD weekend !

(Pity it has now gone to total crapola !)

Saturday I took a solo ride and it was fantastic ~

Then Sunday morning I decided take a nice early morning ride and a chance to snap a shot, post rain shower ~ while just waiting for the boys to "pick me up" ` I went half way to their place/s ~





Slight change of venue this morning.. not as many today ~



A large group of sports bikers turned up from Townsville on a Weekend tour and there was considerable conferring and chat ~ Lots of positive feed back and compliments on the classic bikes and even more on the Trident and "Steve's T120 69 Bonnie".





Last edited by Stuart SS; 04/14/12 10:11 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#445636 - 07/22/12 2:30 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Had more set backs with the Clutch~

Seems I am dammed to &^*^ Hell with this clutch~

( I killed the clutch fairy here ~ but as far as I can see this new clutch plate was a Friday afternoon Special~ in fact a 15.50 hrs model~ )

See the included photos which show the minimal contact on the opposing faces of the clutch plate versus to the basket and pressure plate!

A team of us present, and via discussion / email / phone have flogged the issue to death as there is still actually some three of us with Trident clutch issues !

(I even had Charlie Barnes in US contribute to this saga ~ )

Anyway I measured / gauged / micrometer and dial gauged every aspect of the complete components ~

In the end I found nothing untoward with the pressure plate and basket ~ I replaced the after market pull rod as it had a number of issues ~ I refitted the original OEM "top hat" pull rod ~

(In fact I found that a fragment of “something” entered the pull rod shaft and caused gawling on the shaft! I found no evidence of the offending material and the shaft was clean and unobstructed?? WT ~ ? )

I also replaced the (short shaft) Spider which all herein is part of the chain wheel and primary drive.
The linking shaft and spline showed some wear in the inner casing roller bearing.

I scored an early spider in eBay UK then had the vendor shipped it to LP Williams Inc. Phil then replaced the centre piece with a new long shaft unit then forwarded the new and the old unit along with a parts order to me in Aust.


Mine was definitely worn and both the replacement ones are a far better fit in the bearing!

Firstly the clutch proved to convex / concave. (See below ) Check the narrow bands of contact !!

No wonder the clutch went to %&^^% !!

There was NO oil on the face ~ I approached the vendor in UK that sold me the clutch plate ~ He denied any issues!!

This is not the sintered clutch plate is figure it should be at least resemblance of flat and parallel!
And the result left the clutch plate still some 5 mm wider than the minimum suggested amount of thickness !


















I reiterate~ All components tested to be true ~ !!

The baskets and chain wheel in fact demonstrated zero run out to variance ~ all components true and parallel!


NOW ~ After several months of running I have found ~ if the carbs lose any tune the bike struggles to pull away on an incline. It has a 52 rear and I believe my spanner fitted a 19 to the gear box.

As for the (superb) AMAL rebuild ~ I finally did a three stage fuel test run to a rally and back. I live at 800 M above sea level and the ride entailed descent from the mountains to sea level, brisk rural country and highway cycle, and return to 800m above sea level.

A Fantastic ride, including the rain heading down the range ~

The overall run down and back gave me a fuel return of 49.54 mpg~ with no header pipe discolouring ~ The descent of course down the mountain was a phenomenal fuel return!

The clutch operation/ action is superb ~ gearbox disengages fine ~ but I am not totally happy with it ~



Winter in Tropical QLD Australia



Highest terminal speed, highway cycle ~ 127 kmh~ ( GPS Speedo records this ! lol)

This Speedo creates a LOT of interest where ever I go!



ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#459139 - 10/17/12 11:40 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Well after some six months of suffering with a 8-9/ 10 clutch and more carb issues I bit the bullet ad took delivery of one of Charlie Barnes clutch units ~

What a great man to deal with ~ easy and smooth Dewars across the palette!

His handy work is superb ~





I am on 3 1/2 weeks leave as of nexk week so have a work shop list to accomplish ~

~ Clutch replacement

~ tune the Super carbs along, in parallel with the mufflers ( which i am also goign to tune with baffling inserts ), and exhaust system.

~ Also adding progressive wind front end springs ~

So lots of biking an tweaking along with the Commando ~ Looking good ~

Last edited by Stuart SS; 10/17/12 11:41 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#459274 - 10/18/12 8:52 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Peter R Online content
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Looks like a good job indeed, the original Trident clutch is a fairly heavy piece of kit.
I have considered to shed some weight off the clutch of my bike, but need someone who knows what he is doing to carry out this job.
Definitely something I could not handle myself.


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
1961 Goldie DBD34
1969 Benelli 250 sport special
#459439 - 10/19/12 11:41 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Peter R]  
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Peter

Well ~ "we" gave it our best try and my work place compatriate is no sloth when it comes to machining.

The big problem was/ is the balancing and of course as can be seen the fine, machining as done by Charlie ~

His work is superb and obviously gleaned from many years of experience.

I think many things such as thus can best be left to the experts and the well experienced. And novices such us, well ~ moire ~ just pay the money and appreciate the glory of a service rendered ~


ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#459588 - 10/20/12 5:56 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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ChrisX Online content
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That clutch looks tops! Is it a remanufactured original item or does it use newly designed/manufactured components?

Chris


What's this thread?
#460349 - 10/24/12 7:52 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: ChrisX]  
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Hi Chris

Charlie Barnes has taken original components and re-engineered those components.

The clutch plate I chose of two options for example is his own 'design' being made to his race and road proven specs at 0.292 " thick !

Of course it all balanced (at 500 rpm) with the now optional 7202 tapered roller bearing in the pressure plate backing up the included tapered pull rod ~

Of course the entire package comes integrated with Charlie's personal passion for triples ! (LOL)

I endeavoured to get the same job done in Australia and have to say I have no lack of fellow tripler contacts here Down Under and no single workshop or individual could it seems; put their hand up and shout ~ "Yes I can do this for you, mate!"

So I went to California as it were ~

TripleTecs Trident & Rocket 3 Racing Restorations
http://www.tripletecs.com/contact_us.html



Last edited by Stuart SS; 10/24/12 7:53 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#462631 - 11/10/12 9:23 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Hey Blokes

I think I just made a practical proof in case regarding Back pressure exhausts V straight through exhausts.

I have been wrestling for almost two years with issues ~ carbs and clutch regarding bottom end performance with the Trident ~

A suggestion was made by a fellow tripler regarding back pressure on the exhaust ~ SO I tried it ~

And I am U telling it has made HUGE difference ~

The associated text with video says it all~ In fact all about the debate over baffling V straight trhough exhausts ~

Triumph Trident T150V (1974) Special/ Cafe baffling saga




Quote:
After two years of riding after the completion of my Trident, I have been struggling with the bike. Initially it was simply a bit of a beast and rides too often turned into wrestling matches !

It simply did not like low end and traffic issues ~

After many hours tinkering and tweaking the question came down to the bike having a straight through exhaust ~ Finally under suggestion by a fellow (professional) Tripler I bought a set of baffles and fitted them to the Bike ~

It has Viking big bore and T120 mufflers ~ Paul ( Bryant) of Viking exhaust NZ was adamant that e had no encountered any issues with his big bore or any combination muffler/s!

And I might add I totally respect Paul's input and his professional skills~

But the question I feel also came down to the altitude; I reside at 600 + M / 2000 feet above sea level ~

So this last week I fitted the baffles and finally did some tweaking & retuning today ~

First the decibel level was noticeable much lower ~

And NO more of what I call Hurley Davidson muffler woofing on back throttle ~ ( not back flashing or back firing.. just what I believe is typical of straight through exhausts )

Result~ The bike has NEVER idled so low or smoothly ~ it is far more responsive at the bottom end rev range and a FAR-far smoother bike in suburbia and traffic ~

I doubt the baffles are part of the bike being a one stroke starter ~ more about tune and the Tri-Spark I reckon~

It seems at first impression to have jaded the mid to upper performance but I can tweak the baffles easily , and I prefer to refit the "Super carbs " before I do that ~

Plus clutch is happier ~ the bike nows scales our driveway ~ with GUSTO!

A Win I believe
~

Last edited by Stuart SS; 11/10/12 9:34 am.

ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#465499 - 11/30/12 1:21 am Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
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Anyway ~ I spent almost a full week while on leave playing with the Super carbies ~ and switched needles to every combination with NO resolve~

My original plan was was to perfect my own build carbs and the have another bash at getting the Super carbs right!

( While returning great fuel economy figures they will not pul away under loads such as up my driveway or even gradients~ and splutter on initial throttle break.

This really took some explaining to Ms M as all she saw was the video she did the previous week and then it was running like crap !!)

I found or recalled that when I first ordered huge batches of parts in the early days ~ that I had opted to order the T160 five ring needles as a option for my primary build carbies ~

The Super carbs are fitted with the standard 2 rings ~ I even tried fitting the annodised slides ~ ( both sets are 3 1/2 slides) but I simply could not get the stutter at throttle break and thus the falter from low/ bottom end response !

I also removed the baffles ad flattened out three rows of six as the mid range response and above was dulled !

So I refitted my carbs with T160 needles and stock 3 1/2 slides and 150 & 106 jets and the bike FLIES ~~ It is "on Fire" ~

Even the club events co-ordinator waltzed up to me as two of us were warming up to head home Sunday morning, exclaiming the Trident sounded superb!
I had even polished the bike up for the annual Toy run on Saturday morning ~ so looking fantastic ~

So that put the Cream on the pie ~ LOL

I was also talking with the senior British bike expert on the club scene and he exclaimed IHO without hesitation that I need No 4 slides to make the Super carbs work ~ But it best be right as new annodised slides are going to cop me $150

So I plan to get some fun out of the bike before attempting to tweak the Super carbs ~ and even fitting the Charlie Barnes Clutch as the current clutch is working just fine now ~ DESPITE the fact I flogged the absolute crap out it over the past few weeks ~

Although I feel the current balance factor may be less than perfect ~

And further more the Commando is also flying !! Both firing on the first kick as well ~

The Commando presented a challenge when I fitted SS Bling plates over the rocker end/ covers on the head.

I had to have up to four go’s at sealing the covers leaking oil from the rocker shafts ~ and it was until I used Selastic 732 and allowed to sure before nipping up the mount studs, before I finally go them all to seal ~

Oh BTW

I neglected to mention that after I reduced the amount of back pressure from the Baffles ~ the mid range response and upward was instantly restored ~ with great top gear and mid range throttle response at speed ~

And the bottom end has also remained more stable than previously since completion of the build !

I feel I will actually buy chrome hardened or standard #4 slides for test cases rather than out lay for the anodized to find they are not the Silver bullet ~

Another great add on out come ~ Hope is all of help to others.

_________________


ABSTINENCE;" He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bike. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me. "
#494712 - 06/19/13 8:51 pm Re: T150V Trident risen from the Ashes [Re: Stuart SS]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,582
Adam M. Online content
BritBike Forum member
Adam M.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,582
Mississauga, Ontario.
I decided to sell my A65 and buy a triple.
My concern was the most affordable T150 ( first generation ) looks plain ugly to me.
As a BSA man I prefer BSA frame and slanted look of T160 / Rocket 3 engine.
So I was really surprised to find yours looking so nice.

I know about Yamaha front end, but my question is what tank did you use and is the rear fender / lamp combo original T150 stuff ?

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