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All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? #486670
04/21/13 2:01 am
04/21/13 2:01 am
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Texas
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larry9595 Offline OP
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Texas
Hi there, this is my first post. I've been riding Triumphs since the 70's but only just found you guys and I'm hoping some one can help. I know my way around unit 650s but I'm new to pre unit bikes. I've had a 1955 500 in my garage for a year or two - but it's got some unusual features. Twin carb delta head, dural valve caps, alloy tappet blocks, Tach drive, and what looks like a breather on the timing case? A K2FC competition magneto, close fin alloy cylinders... anyone got any ideas what this may be - it doesn't look much like the TR5 in the 1956 catalog - it's more like a road race motor. Engine number is TR5 61313.

/20130419021_zps990686da.jpg.html][/URL]








Last edited by larry9595; 04/21/13 3:42 am.
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Re: strange Pre Unit 500 [Re: larry9595] #486680
04/21/13 2:56 am
04/21/13 2:56 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,177
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Tridentman  Online Content

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Posts: 4,177
New Jersey USA
Looks like the DPO had shares in Red Hermetite!

Re: strange Pre Unit 500 [Re: larry9595] #486692
04/21/13 4:12 am
04/21/13 4:12 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
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Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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I don't find the aluminium tappet blocks unusual in an aluminium barrel.
Someone has wanted it to go fast,and fitted the delta head and tacho drive.Looks like they did some work on the rocker arms.

The valve springs are much later or aftermarket,and it looks like the aluminium collars are there to get the spring load right.It could have been better to use standard top collars and the thicker bottom collars.
Aluminium collars are OK,until the collets pull right through.

It looks like the bike might have had another less exciting life after that,from the look of the handlebars.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486699
04/21/13 6:25 am
04/21/13 6:25 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,601
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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HawaiianTiger  Online Content

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Oh, you don't want that old thing. Pack it up and ship it to me. I'll gladly take it off your hands.
grin
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486700
04/21/13 6:48 am
04/21/13 6:48 am
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,870
Christchurch NZ
R Moulding Online content
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R Moulding  Online Content
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Nope, forget Bill, i'll take it. Looks like it's in the way anyhow.

I know nowt about pre unit bikes, but head appears to be 59 Bonnie?

Rod

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486702
04/21/13 7:49 am
04/21/13 7:49 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
"I know nowt about pre unit bikes, but head appears to be 59 Bonnie?"

Sure does Red, but this head has been machined to suit the T100 spigot. I dont know much about the fitting of the delta head to the 63mm bore T100, but perhaps the combustion chamber is cast in the 500 pattern rather than the 650?

That would mean another casting pattern, the intrim (spelling?) splayed 59 bonnie head and another with the 500 combustion chamber. Would they have gone to the effort to cast a seperate head as by '59 they ran a unit T100?

So many questions!

Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: 76degree-triumph] #486704
04/21/13 8:23 am
04/21/13 8:23 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
The splayed-port delta head was first used on race-kitted 500 cc engines,long before the Bonneville.It was original equipment on the 1957 T100RS.I sold one of those heads a few years ago.It had never been used.The exhaust spigots were 1.5" diameter,not 1.65" like a 650.

I'm sure they just used the same patterns to cast the early Bonneville head,and machined it a little differently.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486708
04/21/13 9:36 am
04/21/13 9:36 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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76degree-triumph  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
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melbourne, australia
Hi Pete, were the inlet tracts splayed like the above pics with the original parallel ports? So perhaps a modified T110 casting?


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486709
04/21/13 9:39 am
04/21/13 9:39 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
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melbourne, australia
Larry, a head pic taken from the front would help with a year.

Cheers, Chris.


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: 76degree-triumph] #486711
04/21/13 10:15 am
04/21/13 10:15 am
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
P
Pete R - R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Pete R - R.I.P.  Offline
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P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,549
Vic. Australia
Originally Posted By: 76degree-triumph
Hi Pete, were the inlet tracts splayed like the above pics with the original parallel ports? So perhaps a modified T110 casting?

Same as above.You could see that it was derived from a single-carb head,and it had the lumps to prove it.It was a slightly different casting to the T110,like an early Bonneville head.

They were still making those heads during the '60s,to suit 500cc pre-units.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486712
04/21/13 10:19 am
04/21/13 10:19 am
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 253
England
British Ironwork Offline
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British Ironwork  Offline
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England
I've got one of those heads, casting number E3663 I think. If it has the relieved combustion chamber it is a Delta Head, the date stamp cast in the rocker well will probably be '57. The remnants of the original inlet tracts is correct, the standard pattern seems to have been modified when these were originally cast


The number denotes it as 1955, which is too early to be a TR5R which had this build spec, somebody has upgraded a Trophy to the slightly later "R" spec. Never the less a lovely thing to own and I am turning some shade of green looking at what you have got there.

If you are looking to pass it on, then it is morally correct to get it back to England where it's family is waiting, I will gladly do that for you.

Any chance of PMing me a photo of the engine number, or part of it. I want to check the font used on the actual stamp set used in '55.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486716
04/21/13 11:06 am
04/21/13 11:06 am
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 768
Brisbane, Australia
BrizzoBrit Offline

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Brisbane, Australia
BI,

I dont want to divert this thread, but have a look at this thread of mine recently. Might have what you need and save larry a bit of effort.

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthread...4514#Post484514

Cheers
Ray


BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486718
04/21/13 11:30 am
04/21/13 11:30 am
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 253
England
British Ironwork Offline
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British Ironwork  Offline
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England
Ray,
Cheers, not sure I liked what I saw though, I have a bottom end coming from the States, currently in the black hole known as customs.



On one hand the numbers look massive, yet on the other the casting below looks untouched. Replacement cases mayhap?????

Cheers
Brian

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486786
04/21/13 7:46 pm
04/21/13 7:46 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,601
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Online content

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That looks like re-stamped numbers to me. I can manage that sand-cast look quite easily with a hammer and some 60 grit sandpaper. However, there are many re-stamped cases out there and many of them are quite legitimate. I should restate that as there are may stamped replacement cases out there that are legitimate. Sorry.
Bill

Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 04/21/13 7:49 pm.

Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: British Ironwork] #486819
04/22/13 1:00 am
04/22/13 1:00 am
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Texas
L
larry9595 Offline OP
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larry9595  Offline OP
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Posts: 4
Texas
This is what my 1955 case looks like:
The frame number matches but is a different font.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: 76degree-triumph] #486824
04/22/13 1:29 am
04/22/13 1:29 am
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Texas
L
larry9595 Offline OP
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larry9595  Offline OP
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Posts: 4
Texas
Here's a photo from the front


Also - next to a 1962 PU Delta head on the right, 500 on left:


The casting number in the Exhaust rocker box is 3548. Curiously there is no trace of a year-sundial marking on the inlet side, just plain sandcasting.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486831
04/22/13 2:10 am
04/22/13 2:10 am
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Texas
L
larry9595 Offline OP
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larry9595  Offline OP
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Posts: 4
Texas

...and thanks for all the input guys - I looked up TR5/R and found this:

http://tonupclassics.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/1956-triumph-tr5r-road-racer.html

looks very similar, but 1956, and the inlet tracts are parallel.

The only other reference I've found is this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hg5Y8yt...ead&f=false

- but the ports on my head are way too rough to be a real racer.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486876
04/22/13 1:59 pm
04/22/13 1:59 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,057
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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Posts: 10,057
Boston, Massachusetts
For those who wonder if I ever actually built a motorcycle the link above (books.google.com... is one of my 500's at Daytona.
John


Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: larry9595] #486890
04/22/13 3:14 pm
04/22/13 3:14 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 191
Los Angeles
T
tonupjonnie Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 191
Los Angeles
The 500cc Delta Head was not offered 'till late 1956. Buyers of the "104" 1956 TR5R machines were given 1st option on purchasing one of the new Splayed Heads. It was fitted standard on the few TR5R machines built for the 1957 season.

Re: All alloy - factory twin carb - Pre Unit 500 TR5?? [Re: HawaiianTiger] #486898
04/22/13 4:08 pm
04/22/13 4:08 pm
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 253
England
British Ironwork Offline
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British Ironwork  Offline
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Posts: 253
England
Originally Posted By: HawaiianTiger
That looks like re-stamped numbers to me. I can manage that sand-cast look quite easily with a hammer and some 60 grit sandpaper. However, there are many re-stamped cases out there and many of them are quite legitimate. I should restate that as there are may stamped replacement cases out there that are legitimate. Sorry.
Bill


C'est la vie! cry
Too keen by half yet again, but WTF they're big bearing dynamo cases and that's what I'm after.


Moderated by  John Healy 


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