BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Posts: 114
Joined: October 2009
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
29 registered members (Alan_nc), 209 guests, and 459 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
hondapete1950, Gaspare, eberhard, Norman Woollons, LandoLando
10257 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 77
Lannis 56
Popular Topics(Views)
610,291 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,138
Posts651,518
Members10,257
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Copper head gasket anealing? #48641
08/15/06 4:34 pm
08/15/06 4:34 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Dayton Texas
B
Bikefiend Chuck Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Bikefiend Chuck  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 37
Dayton Texas
I intend to aneal and reuse my old copper head gasket.The local Triumph shop told me to heat the head gasket with a torch evenly until it turned cherry red and drop it in a bucket of water.And i was told by someone else that i don't have to drop it in the water.It was only necessary to heat and let it cool on it's own,without the water.Any help with this would be appreciated.I originaly searched this site but came up with nothing.Maybe my "speling"is wrong.......Chuck

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48642
08/15/06 4:43 pm
08/15/06 4:43 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 32
summerville SC
R
Roddy Offline
BritBike Forum
Roddy  Offline
BritBike Forum
R
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 32
summerville SC
Dropping it in the water (quenching)will make it slightly softer, but will also make it twist more. Of course it comes out so soft you'll be able to flatten it easily. Dropping red hot ferrous metals in water has the opposite effect. I always quench mine, then you have to rub with scotch brite to take off the firescale that comes from heating it red hot.

Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48643
08/15/06 7:53 pm
08/15/06 7:53 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
Heating cherry red and dropping it in water will make it "dead soft." Just how you want it.

You will not have to do any cleaning as the quench in water will shock all of the scale.


Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48644
08/15/06 11:03 pm
08/15/06 11:03 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
BritBike Forum member
norbsa48503  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
John must have a large and good tourch. As in all metalsmithing it's a problem of heat lost VS. heat gained. The longer it takes to get to red the more scale that forms. Also if you can get the whole thing hot at once and quickly quench it that will pop the scale right off. What metalsmiths do is quench in a 10% nitric acid solotion and that does real well. Use much caution with any Oxy cutting tip even with a nutral flame it can fry the copper gasket in a heart beat. Don't ask...


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48645
08/15/06 11:14 pm
08/15/06 11:14 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
The flame from a a typical gas cooker (stove in my parts) is the perfect diameter to anneal most Birtish motorcycle head gaskets. I have even done them in a pinche on an electric cooker.

Now you say, ah ha, he must be thinking about a single cylinder head gasket. No, it works for twins also. Just do 1/2 half at a time. Works the treat. Also what we call MAP gas that comes in the little hand torches has a hot enough flame to do 1/2 half the gasket at a time, also.

Now for oxy actelyne: - Great for making modern art from old retired head gaskets. The puddles of copper you make on the floor are said to be interesting, but I am not much of an artist. I am sure in a pinch and with much dexterity one could anneal a head gasket with oxy, but you are just as apt to make modern art....


Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48646
08/16/06 12:59 am
08/16/06 12:59 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
To my embarrasment can't remember the name of the very helpfull person/company who provided a free repair service to riders at Mid-Ohio. He operated out of a red tent located on hot pit lane and also had provided additional services out of big chequer board workshop truck parked close to the entrance to the hot pits.

This kind gentlman annealed a new T140 copper head gasket for me (kindly modified by Tom Sharp to fit my 9 bolt Routt barrel) as it seemed to be a bit on the hard side.

Anyway, to get to the point, not only did this gentleman maintain that quenching was unecessary but also that it is also only necessary to heat to the point where a slight color change is observed and that heating to cherry red may even be detrimental. Not sure that I was entirely convinced by him but he did seem to be very knowledgeable. He certainly was very helpfull anyway and wouldn't hear of charging for his services.

Unfortunately I still experienced a head gasket leak, however, subsequent examination showed that was due to a cylinder barrel thread stripping causing relaxation of bolting force on the gasket at that failed bolt location and had nothing to do with the gasket not being properly annealed.

Incidentally, the gasket had distorted locally and was pushed outwards out of the cylinder to head joint eventually resulting in complete loss of compression on the affected cylinder. Fortunately, to my relief, no other damage was done - to the engine anyway.

Just thought would mention my recent experience with copper gasket annealing and throw it out for comments if any.

beerchug

Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48647
08/16/06 1:18 am
08/16/06 1:18 am
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
BritBike Forum member
norbsa48503  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
It' true you don't have to quench it's just for scale removal. And first sign of a red will do the job complete. Again people go to the "cherry" just to do the overkill thing and make sure there's no hard spots left. Yes the man is right Bodger.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48648
08/16/06 2:44 am
08/16/06 2:44 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,200
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,200
North Georgia, USA
Bodge -
For decades I always dropped mine in the bucket too, but there was a discussion on this very subject when I first joined BB.C, so I got excited and looked it up in my college materials book. Sure enough, it's the heating past a certain point that allows the copper to anneal. Once the copper is annealed, the "quench" is just an after thought.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48649
08/30/06 2:28 am
08/30/06 2:28 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,441
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mark Z  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,441
Owego, NY, USA
I recently annealed (I hope) an A65 head gasket under an electric overhead broiler (because I have no gas appliances), and didn't quench it. So far, so good; the A65 is running well. Time will tell...


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48650
08/30/06 2:56 am
08/30/06 2:56 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
M
Mr Mike Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mr Mike  Offline
BritBike Forum member
M
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,884
Cape Carteret, NC
I use an old single eye hotplate that I bought at a flea market for $2. I just set the gasket on top and turn it on. It'll be glowing dull red in pretty short order. I too quench and lightly brush away the scale.

Mr Mike

Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48651
08/30/06 1:29 pm
08/30/06 1:29 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline
BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
There are several issues that come up when one discusses annealing copper head gaskets:
1. Quenching in water always evokes the purist in that , copper does not need to be quenched to finish the softening process. Quenching does leave you with a cleaner, less oxidized, more professional looking product.

But the reason I was taught to quench the "fire red" copper gasket is so I would not lay it down on a oily rag and start a fire. Or mistakenly try to pick it up while it was still "black" hot (500F).

2. What does "cherry red" mean. Red has many saturations: from dark, nearly grey, to bright nearly yellow color. With copper, it turns cherry around the 700 to 900 degree F mark. The red we are looking for is about half way in between these temperatures.

Practice by starting with a dark red and let it cool or quench it. Check for softness. Increase the heat until when left to cool or quench the metal is dead soft. Remember the color of the copper when it reaches this point. It is what they are talking about when the say cherry red.

3. Copper will anneal, or soften at approx. one half its melting point which is typically around 750 degrees F. This is the point we are looking for when we say heat it until it is cherry red. It is a visual reference point for the copper's temperature.

4. Cherry red relates to a whole different temperature when you are talking about steel and similar metals - 1200 or so F.

Quotes from a couple of googled sites:

Copper becomes hard and brittle when mechani-
cally worked; however, it can be made soft again by
annealing. The annealing temperature for copper is be-
tween 700F and 900F. Copper maybe cooled rapidly
or slowly since the cooling rate has no effect on the heat
treatment. The one drawback experienced in annealing
copper is the phenomenon called "hot shortness." At
about 900F, copper loses its tensile strength, and if not
properly supported, it could fracture.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:oYDezHcAKUMJ:comp.uark.edu/~szhang1/heat_treatment.pdf+heat+treating+copper+cherry+red&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&CD=17&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8


http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi.htm


Re: Copper head gasket anealing? #48652
08/31/06 1:45 pm
08/31/06 1:45 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
7
76degree-triumph Offline
BritBike Forum member
76degree-triumph  Offline
BritBike Forum member
7
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 509
melbourne, australia
John your post on Aug 15 is spot on the money. On my Triumphs I do 1/2 at a time on the gas stove until just glowing red then straight into the kitchen sink full of H2O, the do the other 1/2. Treating the copper between the cylinders twice during this proccess makes no difference. I use gaskets on +.080 T140's running 12:1 comp and have never blown a headgasket. Proof in the pudding!


1950 Speed Twin outfit
1951 Thunderbird outfit (76 degree racebike, or is it 90 deg now?)
1955 BSA D3 minibike outfit
Triumph solo's

Moderated by  Alan_nc 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1