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#479257 - 03/01/13 10:50 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Offline
John Healy  Offline



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts
There are so many factors that are beyond the control of the manufacturer of these electronic ignitions, that all of the testing in the World will not uncover all weaknesses.

While heat developed though the normal combustion process is pretty predictable, excessive heat generated by the switching diode where a coil resistance is too low, the ambient air temperature is 20 to 30 degrees above what is typical in most places (parts of California across to Texas), the engine is timed retarded and/or there is some detonation happening things can get a lot hotter than 100c. Heat is cumulative and it can add up quickly. I have had several Boyer pick-up plates pass through here where the solder on the board had melted.

Yes, these are extreme cases, but you are selling these units to be installed by the general public, and if there is one thing I learned in the past 50 years of doing this, the general public (and a lot of what are called dealers these days) can be pretty creative. If I was Steve I would do what he has done with the triple, mount the sensitive bits away from the engine where they can get some cooling from passing air.


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#479263 - 03/01/13 11:33 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
Tridentman Online content
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Tridentman  Online Content

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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
New Jersey USA
Ray--the reason i have taken time to post my views but more importantly my experiences is so that I will not be able to say "I told you so".
Putting the electronics in the worst environment on the bike just shouts to me as "Bad Engineering".
Now I respect Trispark for their equipment for the triples---this has been well proven as the best kit for the triples---so much so that I am considering fitting them to my triples. However on the triples the Trispark electronics are in a separate box away from the engine.
For a Twin (or single) my preference is the Pazon and I know John H prefers the Boyer. There are pros and cons of each but both have the electronics away from the engine.
Incidentally you quote Trispark as testing "on and off in an oven to 100 deg C 12 times a day".
Any experienced thermal stress testing engineer will tell you that one of the most important factors is the rate of change of temperature (dT/dt). When high this gives rise to differential expansion and contraction and can really find dryish solder joints and other connections which on the bench are perfectly OK.The Trispark rates of temperature change are very low by thermal stress screening standards.
But---as I said before---the choice is yours!
In the (paraphrased) words of the famous French philosopher Voltaire---"I disagree with you--but will defend to the death your right to be wrong".
Please round the thread off by telling us all what your purchasing decision is.
HTH

#479273 - 03/02/13 12:33 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
JBMorris Offline
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JBMorris  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
My own early model Tri-Spark went in last June.
Had a problem with the 2 mm clearance from the face of the rotor and the stator plate when the stator was flush with the recess in the points housing.
The kit came with extra washers for the pillar bolts, so two were glued in to the housing points, acting as 'standoffs'for the stator/electronics unit.
This effectively provided an air gap that would theoretically assist in cooling, aside from the two 'thermal bridges' at the pillar bolts.
This was not an intentional attempt to improve on the design characteristics, only to make it work.
2c


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
#479345 - 03/02/13 12:53 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,655
Dick Harris Online content
BritBike Forum member
Dick Harris  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,655
East Bethany New York
I've had a Boyer on my '70 T-120 since 2002 and with over 70k the only problem I have had with it was the magnets on the rotor had to be replaced. Dick PS. I just checked and the magnets were replaced at at 59000

Last edited by Dick Harris; 03/02/13 12:56 pm.
#479354 - 03/02/13 1:31 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
JubeePrince Online content
Life member
JubeePrince  Online Content

Life member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
Back on the mainland!
I've had my Boyer MKIII since 2005 and over 10,000 miles .....rock solid.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#484888 - 04/08/13 12:43 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
TR6Ray Online content
BritBike Forum member
TR6Ray  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
Illinois, USA
Originally Posted by Tridentman
[snip]
Please round the thread off by telling us all what your purchasing decision is.
HTH

Tridentman, remember way back when you said this? I finally got around to deciding to keep the Boyer MK4 that I already have on hand (for my '64 TR6). But I still have a problem deciding where to put that stinkin' box! I think I have read every thread on this topic on every mcy forum out there. Here's my issue. I am wondering how important it is to isolate the box from direct contact with the frame. The components inside the box are bedded -- is that enough? After considering a multitude of other locations, I keep coming back to this:

[Linked Image]

If I drill two small holes as indicated in my picture, I can pass two tie-wraps horizontally around the box. It will be tight against the frame stiffener plate. It could not walk up or down because it would be against the frame tube in either case. It could not walk backward against the coil bracket because the tie-wraps would stop it. The wires don't rub anywhere and can easily point in the right directions. The wires will be shortest here, and away from the Podtronics unit (which will be on the front of the battery box).

I have sketched up about a half dozen brackets I could make that would place the box where my hand is in the picture, and use rubber mounting. However, to keep it simple, the location shown is the easiest. Rubber mounting of any kind in this spot will have the box touching the rubber mounted coil. Without isolation, it clears the coil, but -- is the box likely to die from vibration?


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#484919 - 04/08/13 4:55 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: TR6Ray]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,301
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,301
Scotland
Hi Ray,

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
But I still have a problem deciding where to put that stinkin' box!

Just to give you another option, ... grin I put my T100's horizontally in that gap between the frame tubes just on the right of your picture. The tubes have pieces of stick-on padded tape in the gap, then I've used a long releaseable zip tie around the box and both frame tubes to hold the box in place.

Hth.

Regards,

#484940 - 04/08/13 1:07 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
Tridentman Online content
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Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
New Jersey USA
Ray---thanks for rounding off the thread with your decision on EI---appreciated.
Having worked on Environmental Stress Screening of electronics for use in guided missiles I take the view that you should give the electronics the easiest life possible.
IMHO you shouldnt try to "test" the electronics any more than you have to.
So---in my view (and I would be the first to acknowledge that there are other views) my guidelines for the location of the box would be:
a) Away from heat sources---so I would not put it above the engine but as far away from it as possible. This is why I put my Pazon black boxes in the tool storage etc area under the seat.
b) Away from any vibration input to the box. Maybe the encapsulation of the electronics will suffice but who knows? I am not interested in finding out (maybe the hard way!). I am interested in long term reliability and durability. So I mount my boxes with rubber or foam so that they do not see vibration input. Please note that I do not wrap them in rubber or foam--I always leave one big face of the rectangular box open to the air to aid any cooling necessary.
As I say ---these are my personal views. Are they overkill?---maybe---but I prefer that to being stranded in the middle of nowhere in a rainstorm.
Hope I havent bored you with my approach.

#484944 - 04/08/13 2:02 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Jack Adams Offline
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Jack Adams  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,113
Noblesville, IN
Ray, I also put mine in the space like Stuart,but I also fabbed up a small alloy plate mounted to the lower frame rail(66 T-120) horizontally and attached the MK III box with velcro.It has lived there over 20 years with no issues,the velcro takes care of vibration and the heat doesn't seem to be a problem. Jack

#484999 - 04/08/13 8:06 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Jack Adams]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
TR6Ray Online content
BritBike Forum member
TR6Ray  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
Illinois, USA
Thanks gents, for the replies. I know that to you guys with years of BritBike experience, this ranks right up there with oil and tire advice threads. The common point in your replies is that some vibration isolation is desirable. I think I have it worked out. I'll put up some pictures when I get it done. You input is helpful and appreciated.

Ray


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#485001 - 04/08/13 8:18 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
John Healy Offline
John Healy  Offline



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,970
Boston, Massachusetts

Originally Posted By: Tridentman
maybe---but I prefer that to being stranded in the middle of nowhere in a rainstorm.


But isn't that a big part of the romance of owning, and using, an old motorcycle.


#485028 - 04/09/13 12:05 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Ken Holby]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
Tridentman Online content
BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,050
New Jersey USA
It used to be, John, 40+ years ago but I guess I have got soft in my old age. Nowadays I prefer a quiet ride in the dry. Coming from the UK I dont particularly want it to be hot--just dry!!!!

#485032 - 04/09/13 12:19 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Tridentman]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
JBMorris Offline
BritBike Forum member
JBMorris  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,515
Farmington,Connecticut,USA
Ah yes,
Raindrops on an old Triumph. . .
'Tink-tink-tink' on the gas tank reminds us how thin that sheet metal is. . .
and those chrome rotors sure do look 'purty'.
laughing
and the water draining into your boots as you ride is a nice touch!


1978 Bonneville T140V PX
#485174 - 04/10/13 2:26 am Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: TR6Ray]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 73
Graham Ross Offline
BritBike Forum member
Graham Ross  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 73
Steveston, B.C. Canada
Hi Ray.....

Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
The common point in your replies is that some vibration isolation is desirable. I think I have it worked out.


I agree with the view of isolating it from vibration and away from heat.

We just put a MK IV Boyer in my friend's '71 TR6C we restored last year.

It went under the seat where we had taken out the condensers. Placed it on some foam with zap straps to hold it in place....so far so good.

Started right up; but the timing when checked with a strobe light was quite a bit advanced....but that could have been installer's error!

Once timed properly the bike really does run smoother and is easier to start.

The only thing that did happen was that on initial start-up there was a sickening high pitch squeal. This we found out later was one of the magnets on the rotor wearing a nice groove in one of the coil pick-ups. I guess too tight manufacturing tolerances....

Doesn't seem to have affected anything so far.... but we'll see.

As an aside, since we installed a Boyer in the Triumph it only seemed fair to install a Pazon in my BSA 441VS. The advance pivots, weights, et all are hopelessly knackered beyond repair. As the increasingly number of kick backs when starting the beast will attest.

The Pazon unit should come in early next week and it will be interesting to see the differences between it and the Boyer.

Graham



Last edited by Graham Ross; 04/10/13 2:30 am.
#485401 - 04/11/13 7:31 pm Re: To Boyer...or not to Boyer... [Re: Graham Ross]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
TR6Ray Online content
BritBike Forum member
TR6Ray  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
Illinois, USA
Stuart and Jack: I took a look at poking the Boyer Box where you did, and I could see some advantages but didn't wind up going there. I am gratified to know that your EI boxes have lived there successfully for so long.
Graham: It's good to know the Boyer is working in your friend's TR6. I enjoyed watching that build. I just don't have the space you had, since I have the older style coil placement under the tank. Right or wrong, I want to keep my toolbox free of wiring and such, except there will be a ground (earth) point where the old rectifier used to be. BTW: I wish I had the spacious battery box off that '71.
T-Man: You will probably criticize this, but I am putting my Boyer Box above the coils almost as in the picture I posted above. I know this puts it above the heat of the engine, and even moreso than on Stuart and Jack's bikes because mine is toward the front. I did take your advice and work in some vibration deadening, and you did your level best to talk me out of the enclosed Tri-Spark setup (which still seems to be working well for JBMorris, but I won't go there grin ). I found quite a few posts where people said they mount the box up under the tank and right next to the coils.

So here's what I did. I mentioned before that the coil mounting left no room for any sort of pad. I got around that by moving the box to the TS instead of the DS. That would not appear to make any sense, except that my coil brackets are not the same on both sides. One uses the "D" washers, while the other is stamped differently and does not. The bracket without the "D" washers stands a tiny bit further off the frame. I drilled a couple 3/16" holes and dabbed in some POR-15 paint and let it dry. Then stuck on two strips of sticky back foam into the recesses on the stiffener plate. This stuff is 3/8" square in cross section, made for automotive applications. I made the strips long enough to pad the lower frame tube:

[Linked Image]

Since the Boyer Box extends forward past the edge of the frame stiffener plate, the tie-wraps shown above will pull the box back against the coil mount bracket when pulled tight. I got around this by slipping a 3/4" long piece of fuel line around each tie-wrap. Here's how it sits:

[Linked Image]

You can see that there is still clearance for the coil to do its dance. I can wiggle the Boyer Box, so I know the foam stuff is not compressed all the way flat. We'll see how this works out. To further justify this spot, I'll end with a quote from Mr. Whatley:

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Box Mounting
As far as Boyer mounting... On a Triumph I greatly prefer the location above the stock coils due to the shorter pulse (point) leads, shorter coil leads, easy access to power, and plenty of cool air. These are 4 very strong reasons.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
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