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Twin leading shoe help #483544
03/29/13 12:12 pm
03/29/13 12:12 pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 37
queensland
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kye Offline OP
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queensland
Hi all
Just want to know if anyone can tell me if this will work
I have this 8" full width hub on my 68 t120

I have bought this 8" tls and am told it is the 69-70 one

Will it fit my hub the setups I've seen with tls the spokes closest to the brake plate are different
I'm a bit of a fool I am away at work and bought it just hoping so I can't just go check myself any help including what year hub mine is will be appreciated

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Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483620
03/29/13 11:24 pm
03/29/13 11:24 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,459
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: kye
if this will work

We-el-ll ...

. One the one hand, essentially most Triumph '64-'70 brake parts are interchangeable, allowing for the differences between 7" and 8" brakes.

. However, a "68 t120" should have a tls brake plate already confused - the only difference from the '69/'70 one you've acquired is the cable reaches the (straight) front brake arm parallel to the the link rod, not parallel to the fork leg.

. Aiui from a post to the BSA Board a few weeks ago, when Triumph went from sls to tls, they increased the thickness of the hub around the spoke mountings, because the tls could crack the unstrengthened hub. frown The pictures you've posted aren't clear but the hub doesn't appear to have the strengthened areas; if it also has an sls brake plate (again, not clear from your pictures), either the hub or the bike is pre-'68.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483622
03/30/13 12:23 am
03/30/13 12:23 am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 37
queensland
K
kye Offline OP
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queensland
Hi
Thanks for your reply
The bike is a 68 t120
With a 73t140 engine and wrong front brake
And probably wrong bits all over


Just love the tls think I will have to find the strengthened hub now
Def dont want it cracking

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483625
03/30/13 1:06 am
03/30/13 1:06 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 225
Los Angeles, CA
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Mike Cornwall Offline
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I had some trouble with this on a TLS BSA, on mine the brake boss on the fork slider didn't jive with brakes from any other year and the fender mounts were different too. If your front end works decent you might want to leave it but of course that's your call.

i've seen someone fab a TLS setup into a brake like the one on your bike, it'll be in here somewhere if you search.


1972 Tiger 650
1978 Bonneville 750
1968 Victor 441
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483628
03/30/13 2:07 am
03/30/13 2:07 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 612
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Online content
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San Rafael, Ca.
This is the correct hub for an 8" TLS brake:



It is part 37-1722, and was introduced in 1966 as a SLS brake. This is what you have on your bike now, it is a 1958-1965 hub:



As you can see, Triumph moved the brake side spokes to an annular flange, increasing the drum width and strength. The 1966 and later brake shoes (both TLS and SLS) are quite a bit wider than those of the brake you're currently using. I doubt that a TLS brake would fit in the earlier hub without narrowing the brake shoes.

Eric




1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483653
03/30/13 7:53 am
03/30/13 7:53 am
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 37
queensland
K
kye Offline OP
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queensland
Thanks so much for replies
Found out what hub I have and also found out what part number and hub I need
Thanks again
Kye

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: BikeVice] #483654
03/30/13 9:22 am
03/30/13 9:22 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,459
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi Eric,

Thanks for the correction and clarification. bigt

Regards,

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483746
03/31/13 12:42 pm
03/31/13 12:42 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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..I've fitted a TLS in my T110s hub as it too dangerous 'round here with traffic to trust the SLS!I had used the wider(66)shoes & had seen no ill effects....


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: 6T] #483760
03/31/13 2:57 pm
03/31/13 2:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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Jon W. Whitley Online content

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6T,

Is that a 7" brake plate and shoes riding in a full width hub?


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483762
03/31/13 3:06 pm
03/31/13 3:06 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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No Jon,8" with the rim machined off! (I've since fitted the chrome grill)...


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: 6T] #483763
03/31/13 3:10 pm
03/31/13 3:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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Thanks 6T, that looks really good. I have a 7" with the same treatment, which will be fitted to my '57 6T.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483766
03/31/13 3:24 pm
03/31/13 3:24 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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back down the 'smoke',England
..just bid on another brake plate like this but in the end it went for 153+postage... Also,I believe Dave Degens did a 1960/66 TLS brake plate with the mechanism INSIDE the drum?So it'd look original!Cheers...


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483769
03/31/13 3:55 pm
03/31/13 3:55 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,379
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Online content
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There is a Triumph service bulletin, number 69/13, concerning this. The 1968 dual-leading-shoe brake plate was a drop-in substitute for the 1966-67 brake, because it was a race-developed
brake used in Triumph's "Thruxton' production racers.
However, its long brake cable caused problems, so the brake was
re-designed for the 1969 model year.

The service bulletin states that the '69 and later forks are WIDER by 1/4-inch than the 1964-67 forks to fit this new plate. I quote:

"ALL 750cc three cylinder models; 650cc twins FROM engine no.
DU85904; 500cc models FROM engine no. H65573 use 6 3/4" center
spacing, front fork stanchion tubes.

"Earlier Triumph models all used 6 1/2" center spacing."

The front anchor peg for the brake plate (located on the R.H. slider) is 1/8" longer and the bulletin states:

"1/4" length of engagement must be maintained between anchor
peg and brake plate. IF AN EARLIER R.H. lower member (fork
slider) were used for a 1969 model, insufficient engagement
would result." (unsafe condition?)

"Similarly, 1969 FRONT WHEEL SPINDLES are 1/4" longer than,
and thus NOT INTERCHANGEABLE with, former models."

Thus to convert to the 1969 brake plate, and do it properly, you should have both upper and lower fork crowns, lower R.H. fork slider, front axle and brake plate from a 1969 500 or 650 Triumph. If it was me, I would go for the '68 brake. Otherwise, look for an entire '69 650 front fork and wheel.

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483779
03/31/13 4:52 pm
03/31/13 4:52 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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back down the 'smoke',England
..this is actually the earlier plate(the cable stop was broken off,so rather than get it welded,decided to mod it)& as you might be able to see in the second photo the fork anchor lug is fully engaged into the brake plate.The later hub has the 'flange' so the brake shoe has a bigger 'swept' area(10%)?Cheers!


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: Irish Swede] #483864
04/01/13 12:57 am
04/01/13 12:57 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,459
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: Irish Swede
The service bulletin states that the '69 and later forks are WIDER by 1/4-inch than the 1964-67 forks to fit this new plate.

Except it's utter cobblers ... grin I've seen a number of reasons touted for the '68/'69 fork width change - apart from anything else, BSA twins had fork legs 6-3/4" centre-to-centre well back into the 1960's, and Small Heath started fitting the Triumph tls from '68.

Originally Posted By: Irish Swede
Thus to convert to the 1969 brake plate, and do it properly, you should have both upper and lower fork crowns, lower R.H. fork slider, front axle and brake plate

Nope.

The hubs might have different part numbers '68 to '69 but they are the same width (they use the same brake shoes).

The centreline of the hub is on the centreline of the bike. Therefore, by definition, either a '68 or '69/'70 brake plate is exactly the same distance from the centrelines of the hub and bike.

Therefore, as long as you mount the hub and brake plate:-

. either on a '69/'70 axle and in '69/'70 yokes with a '69 R.H. slider

. or on a '68 axle and in '68 yokes with a pre-'69 R.H. slider ...

... by definition, the "front anchor peg" will engage with your chosen brake plate.

Fwiw, I've helped a number of people fit pre-conical tls in place of sls or build up forks for pre-conical tls; that the '69/'70 tls won't fit between 6-1/2"-centres fork legs is nonsense.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483929
04/01/13 1:03 pm
04/01/13 1:03 pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 37
queensland
K
kye Offline OP
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Mmmm
Now I just want to get home and play around with it
But what about the issue of hub cracking?

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483933
04/01/13 1:38 pm
04/01/13 1:38 pm
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If you're worried about the hub cracking then maybe you might consider finding a complete wheel from a '69 or '70 machine or a '66 -'68 since you already have the brake plate. You can use the axle from your existing wheel if you get the '69 or '70. Then, sell your current wheel and recoup some or all of the cost.







Originally Posted By: kye
Mmmm
Now I just want to get home and play around with it
But what about the issue of hub cracking?


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483970
04/01/13 5:19 pm
04/01/13 5:19 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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..has anyone actually seen a cracked hub?


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #483986
04/01/13 6:19 pm
04/01/13 6:19 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,022
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Quote:
..has anyone actually seen a cracked hub?


Yes, I have and if you talk to Buchanan they have experienced some broken hubs. There is a picture of a broken hub on the VB web site - links to my wheel lacing site.

People get final spoke tension confused with the torque applied to the nipple. For a given spoke tension the torque reading of the nipple will vary depending whether the nipple is lubricated, or not.

If the nipples, and nipple head where it bears on the rim, is lubricated, especially the lubricant supplied with Buchanan stainless spokes, for a given spoke tension the nipple torque will be very different than it would be if it wasn't lubricated. At 50 inch pounds, a lubricated nipple, used with an original Dunlop or Jones rim will provide quite a bit of tension. In some cases it is enough to break at BSA/Triumph cast hub use 1968-70 (500 to 1974).

As an aside, 50 inch pounds applied to a lubricated nipple used with the most popular aftermarket rim, and if you are not careful you will be pulling the nipple through the rim.

Some times people forget that the spokes work in tandem with those that are diametrically opposed, and those adjacent. If you already have 3 spokes of an tensioned set torqued to 50 pounds where one of the 4 in the set is less, bringing the last spoke up to 50 inch pounds increases the tension of the 3 all ready tightened in the set. Loosening must always a part of balancing spoke tension across all of the spokes.


Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #484010
04/01/13 9:00 pm
04/01/13 9:00 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
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back down the 'smoke',England
Yes John,but your talking of when lacing wheels,no?If you imagine the surface area of a 1965 wheel & a 1970 one,the pressure from the shoes on the spoke area of the drum would seem to be quite a small percentage considering the width of the shoes is about nearly 2"...?


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #484442
04/04/13 8:46 pm
04/04/13 8:46 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,459
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

Originally Posted By: kye
what about the issue of hub cracking?

The issue was brought up in a thread on the BSA Board, where the poster advised warned that a tls brake, although it would fit in an earlier hub, could crack the hub if it was without the external thicker 'shoulder' where the spokes mount.

However, as Eric ("BikeVice") posted, certainly the 8" hub was upgraded from '66, even if it didn't get a tls brake 'til '68.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #484444
04/04/13 9:11 pm
04/04/13 9:11 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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back down the 'smoke',England
..nah!the only problem would be the extra heat with the TLS but its not motoGP is it.Yes I'm sure hubs break but when they are being re-laced...


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #484451
04/04/13 10:01 pm
04/04/13 10:01 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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..look,as soon as the snow clears & it gets above zero, I'll be out there hammering it for all its worth(petrol prices allowing)..... I'm off out with the snow shoes down the bar,,Cheers!


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
BMW R1100rt
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: kye] #484515
04/05/13 10:16 am
04/05/13 10:16 am
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 753
Brisbane, Australia
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Dont know if this qualifies as 'cracked' but I guess this is what John is referring to. This sat on my '68 for quite some time. Was like it when I got it.

Now, this hub got replaced as part of an insurance claim (long story). The replacement I was offered by the local britshop had a brazed in repair to replace just such a break. I was told "brand new from the factory". I'll supply my own replacement hub thanks very much.

Kye not sure where in the sunny state you are, but that hub with the brazed repair could be yours if you take a trip to Woolloongabba smile



BSA 1969 A65F
BSA 1966 A65H
Triumph 1968 T120
Kawasaki A1R
& too many projects!
Re: Twin leading shoe help [Re: BrizzoBrit] #484527
04/05/13 12:42 pm
04/05/13 12:42 pm
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 37
queensland
K
kye Offline OP
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Pm sent mate

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