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#475388 - 02/02/13 11:08 pm Electric Start- Retro fitting?  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 62
Leonc Offline
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Leonc  Offline
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Posts: 62
New Zealand
I have not been close enough to an 82-83 ES Bonnie to figure out if I could retro fit the big pieces eg. timing cover and starter to my 68 Bonnie motor (Triton) or it would in fact it would be easier to take an 82-83 motor and convert that to a right foot change to suit the rest of my bike.
The reason I am considering this option is that my right leg suffered many years ago in accident and I am getting to the point of needing both ES and left foot brake.
Any responses greatly appreciated.


Leon
1968 Triton Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty kit
1970 T100C Scrambler special
1971 Rocket 3 Export
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#475407 - 02/03/13 1:11 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 355
GTSRider Offline
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GTSRider  Offline
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Posts: 355
Tampa, Florida
I have an 81 ES now for about 11 years... so I know the bike well. The ES's had beefed up crankcases to take the extra load of the ES.
I have an NOS spare timing cover, but will not part with it.
There is a guy I can get you the info on, who converts any older
Triumph twin... but the conversion is very expensive.
I love my 81 ES , and would recommend one to you, if you are not
in love with your present bike.
The ES's go cheap...no one understands them.
Pete
Hudson Valley NY.


PM
#475420 - 02/03/13 2:37 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: GTSRider]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 62
Leonc Offline
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Leonc  Offline
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Posts: 62
New Zealand
Is that the QPD system that does the belt drives as well? I have sent an email to find out about their pricing.
As much as any 80's ES would be very welcome in my garage the brake lever would be on the wrong side and as a relatively modern machine in NZ would cost a lot more to road register than my 68.
Also the last ES I saw for sale here sold for close to NZ$10,000!
Would love to know about cheap ones in NY.
Regards


Leon
1968 Triton Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty kit
1970 T100C Scrambler special
1971 Rocket 3 Export
#475424 - 02/03/13 3:31 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 774
KADUTZ Offline
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KADUTZ  Offline
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in my house
Leonc

I talked to QPD last week on converting a 78 T140V to electric start. I was told the conversion is VERY difficult and was quoted in excess of $3000 US for them to do the install and parts. (I have no problem with the price but it isnt in my budget). As far as your objection to right/left brake shift vs left/right brake shift I have gone back an forth with no problem for over 30years. If in doubt brake with both feet

I suggest read the post T140ES VIN QUESTION Looks like a ES might be up for sale.

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
#475471 - 02/03/13 11:34 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
meriden4ever Online content
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London United Kingdom
GTS Rider is right that the cases are beefed up. Brian Jones in an interview when the elcetric start was introduced said retro-fitting was a factory job and mentioend a Jubilee owner wanting his converted. If it is possible to make a T120 with T140 cases or possible to suitably machine the T120 cases then all well and good. As to what is beefed up, all i know is there is a bush in the timing chest to take the strain of the gear train movement.
Left foot brakes on a late T140 is easier. The Meriden co-op were simply converting an engine originally designed for right foot gearshifting and left foot brakes ! I've seen enough bikes so converted to know it's possible to DIY-it. There's even a photo of a TSX on Wikipedia so converted which is also featured in the rare book, Original Triumph Bonneville by Gerard Kane & James Mann.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
#475477 - 02/03/13 12:19 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,222
JubeePrince Online content
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JubeePrince  Online Content

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Posts: 7,222
Back on the mainland!
It's too bad the factory didn't have the resources (see: money) to do the mod right like QPD (or even Norton for that matter) did. Having the starter on the clutch side makes it easier to start a bike not in good tune. If you end up with a backfire or kickback on the factory electric start (timing side), you can wreak havoc on the timing gears and valve train...

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
#475509 - 02/03/13 3:42 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,645
GrandPaul Online content
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GrandPaul  Online Content
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Bob Osborn (QPD) is slowing down (aren't we all?); he takes a good while to modify each client's engine and install the system. "time is money". I think it was a 6-month wait when i talked to him a few years ago, I believe it's longer now (although I could be wrong).


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
#475526 - 02/03/13 4:33 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: JubeePrince]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Steve,

Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
If you end up with a backfire or kickback on the factory electric start (timing side), you can wreak havoc on the timing gears and valve train...

Aiui, Meriden then beefed-up the timing gears whistle ... then went toes-up financially not long afterwards ... cry

Regards,

#475530 - 02/03/13 4:53 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,968
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,968
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
Aiui, Meriden then beefed-up the timing gears


And that was a disaster! Instead of the gear mechanism coming to harm it just moved the eventual catastrophe to more and more expensive parts. The final iteration of gears and pinions Brian Jones came up with when he was working for LF Harris in the mid 80's led to the starter breaking crankcases. Each iteration of the update to the electric starter kit led to more, and more expensive parts being broken. Instead of fixing why it didn't work, and protect the bits when it did back fire, they kept trying to patch it up, make it stronger. If you are anal about keeping the battery fully charged you can usually use the starter, but one back fire can lead to an expensive repair.


#475684 - 02/04/13 7:19 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 202
trumpettwin Offline
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Tampa, FL
I bought a electric start unit on eBay several years ago. My intention was to convert my 1977 Bonneville to e-start. I never got around to it and have since bought a 1982 T140ES, again on eBay (Sorry Leonc, The bike was in MN and after shipping I have about 2K in it). I read the posts here about converting earlier models to e-start and it scared me some. The thought that I could end up with broken cases on my darling 77... Oh My! The question that ran through my mind was, with a zero advance ignition like the Lucas e-ignition, what is the chance of a kick back starting? For set-up, I would use the kick starter. I am 66 yo now and even if the e-start doesn't spin it up every time, a little help with the kick would be good.
The ES I bought looked like it was wrecked and put away. It appears that someone tried to bring it back but were unsuccessful. I found the starter wires and the starter functions. I intend to replace the dented parts with 70's tank and maybe even some 60's looks.
The starter that I said that I wouldn't take a thousand dollars for has made a liar of me. The start system is complete except for the sprag clutch and the clip that holds the starter motor gear onto the shaft. The solenoid is there too. The starter motor turns over when powered but I have not measured RPM or other attributes. The small cover that covers the starter motor drive is cracked but the attaching bolts align with the threaded holes in the main cover. I'm sure it can be fixed.
Anybody that wants to convert, I'll take a thousand dollars for the unit plus whatever it takes to get it to you (should be less than $20. in the US).
Randy


65 T20 Mountain Cub
69 TR6R (with 73 TR7R engine)
73 TR5T
77 T140V
79 ES Street Tracker (in the planning stage)
Enough parts to build a couple more. smile
#475690 - 02/04/13 8:44 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: GrandPaul]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,095
Matthew in TO Offline
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Matthew in TO  Offline
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Posts: 1,095
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I like the electric start layout proposed for the T100 twin. IIRC the starter was located in front of the engine, not behind.

It's not that Triumph didn't have experience with electric start, as the scooters were thus equipped. Of course, we know how well they sold...

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 02/04/13 8:44 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
#475751 - 02/05/13 6:23 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Matthew in TO]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,297
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Matthew,

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
I like the electric start layout proposed for the T100 twin. IIRC the starter was located in front of the engine, not behind.

It isn't so much where the starter's located, as its connection to the crank; as John alludes, the problem with the big twin is that the timing gears were used for that connection, and the whole area - gears and their mountings - was never intended to take the loads that can be generated by attempting to electric-start a cold 375cc cylinder. frown

Otoh, the putative "T100" set-up I've seen, as well as actually only afaik being on a 350 - so only having to swing over 175cc - the starter was in a similar position to the old dynamo, and connected to the crank by a chain. The only problem with that would've been whether Meriden could've come up with a reliable sprag-clutch.

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
It's not that Triumph didn't have experience with electric start, as the scooters were thus equipped.

You're forgetting the T160. The set-up on them uses the same M3 starter originally used on those much-smaller scooter engines, is basically good and, given a couple of tweaks, is bog-reliable. But it's connected to the clutch, which is connected to the crank by the primary chain. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

#475775 - 02/05/13 10:44 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,468
AngloBike Online content
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AngloBike  Online Content
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UK Berks
anybody seen the A10 on youtube that the guy who started SRM built?

I have wondered how hard it would be for a competent engineer to adapt it for Triumphs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvKy9l75u4&feature=plcp

#475871 - 02/05/13 11:10 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,515
DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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ca, us
I believe that starter is connected through the back side of the primary. You do not have that space available on the unit twins.

#475899 - 02/06/13 3:28 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Oct 2006
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KADUTZ Offline
BritBike Forum member
KADUTZ  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 774
in my house
Ann-Margret had a Triumph converted to electric start using a Honda starter. Anybody have any knowledge about this conversion, who did it, and which Triumph was converted?

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
#475901 - 02/06/13 3:43 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
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DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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ca, us
I believe Dan Macias (Triumph race team manager) did the conversion. 1966 Tiger 100C (Triumph in America).

#475916 - 02/06/13 6:50 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 161
billysguitars Offline
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billysguitars  Offline
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Posts: 161
Texas
Click on the link below and see if it doesn't bring up a photo of that bike.
Billy


<http://www.flickr.com/photos/triumph_brescia/5303131930/>


Bunch of 60s Bonnies (mostly in pieces), a 46/48 T100 project, a 73 Commando Interstate, 58 Cub, 68 Norton P11 project and one barely started slimline/pre unit Triton
#476028 - 02/07/13 2:35 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Oct 2006
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KADUTZ Offline
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KADUTZ  Offline
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in my house
Thanks for the come back guys

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
#476042 - 02/07/13 9:25 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
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dave jones  Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I met a chap with an electric start BSA B33! It was amazing to see a 500 single start so easily on a button. He said the conversion was nearly 2000!

Dave

#476080 - 02/07/13 5:59 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: billysguitars]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
meriden4ever Online content
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meriden4ever  Online Content
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Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: billysguitars
Click on the link below and see if it doesn't bring up a photo of that bike.
Billy


<http://www.flickr.com/photos/triumph_brescia/5303131930/>


I don't think that is the electric start T100 but instead the bike that she rode in the The Swinger


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
#476216 - 02/08/13 9:57 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: meriden4ever]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,547
TR6Ray Online content
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TR6Ray  Online Content

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Illinois, USA
I'd suspect that, back in the day, whatever she sat on would start automatically.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
#476217 - 02/08/13 10:03 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: TR6Ray]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,897
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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Posts: 6,897
scotland
Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
I'd suspect that, back in the day, whatever she sat on would start automatically.


Yeah some things would.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#476395 - 02/10/13 7:24 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 915
Deadstiffcatt Offline
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Deadstiffcatt  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 915
Nor. California
There is currently one of the electric start models available on E-bay for a reasonable price. Perhaps it's an alternative idea to purchase outright vs. the cost of modification to your current bike?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1982-Triu...0#ht_790wt_1155

#476808 - 02/13/13 9:18 pm Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Deadstiffcatt]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 62
Leonc Offline
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Leonc  Offline
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New Zealand
Thanks for all the responses, I have been away for a week or so and just caught up with all the latest postings.
At this point I may see how things go eg. wait, the ES on eBay has a buy now of US$5k, which if it was on my back doorstep could be an option but is not realistic when you are on then other side of the world, transport, govt fees, registration costs etc.
It is all useful information though.


Leon
1968 Triton Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty kit
1970 T100C Scrambler special
1971 Rocket 3 Export
#481208 - 03/14/13 2:22 am Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 202
trumpettwin Offline
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trumpettwin  Offline
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Posts: 202
Tampa, FL
After talking to some members on here, I've decided to sell my electric start kit. It is on eBay because none of us know what it is worth. lol The starter is at: http://www.eBay.com/itm/330888634871?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649.


65 T20 Mountain Cub
69 TR6R (with 73 TR7R engine)
73 TR5T
77 T140V
79 ES Street Tracker (in the planning stage)
Enough parts to build a couple more. smile

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