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Electric Start- Retro fitting? #475388
02/02/13 11:08 pm
02/02/13 11:08 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 65
New Zealand
L
Leonc Offline OP
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Leonc  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 65
New Zealand
I have not been close enough to an 82-83 ES Bonnie to figure out if I could retro fit the big pieces eg. timing cover and starter to my 68 Bonnie motor (Triton) or it would in fact it would be easier to take an 82-83 motor and convert that to a right foot change to suit the rest of my bike.
The reason I am considering this option is that my right leg suffered many years ago in accident and I am getting to the point of needing both ES and left foot brake.
Any responses greatly appreciated.


Leon
1968 D/14 Bushman
1968 D/14 Trials
1968 Triton T120 Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty Kit
1970 T100C Scrambler
1971 Rocket 3 Export
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Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475407
02/03/13 1:11 am
02/03/13 1:11 am
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 355
Tampa, Florida
G
GTSRider Offline
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Posts: 355
Tampa, Florida
I have an 81 ES now for about 11 years... so I know the bike well. The ES's had beefed up crankcases to take the extra load of the ES.
I have an NOS spare timing cover, but will not part with it.
There is a guy I can get you the info on, who converts any older
Triumph twin... but the conversion is very expensive.
I love my 81 ES , and would recommend one to you, if you are not
in love with your present bike.
The ES's go cheap...no one understands them.
Pete
Hudson Valley NY.


PM
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: GTSRider] #475420
02/03/13 2:37 am
02/03/13 2:37 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 65
New Zealand
L
Leonc Offline OP
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Leonc  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 65
New Zealand
Is that the QPD system that does the belt drives as well? I have sent an email to find out about their pricing.
As much as any 80's ES would be very welcome in my garage the brake lever would be on the wrong side and as a relatively modern machine in NZ would cost a lot more to road register than my 68.
Also the last ES I saw for sale here sold for close to NZ$10,000!
Would love to know about cheap ones in NY.
Regards


Leon
1968 D/14 Bushman
1968 D/14 Trials
1968 Triton T120 Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty Kit
1970 T100C Scrambler
1971 Rocket 3 Export
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475424
02/03/13 3:31 am
02/03/13 3:31 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
K
KADUTZ Offline
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KADUTZ  Offline
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K
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
Leonc

I talked to QPD last week on converting a 78 T140V to electric start. I was told the conversion is VERY difficult and was quoted in excess of $3000 US for them to do the install and parts. (I have no problem with the price but it isnt in my budget). As far as your objection to right/left brake shift vs left/right brake shift I have gone back an forth with no problem for over 30years. If in doubt brake with both feet

I suggest read the post T140ES VIN QUESTION Looks like a ES might be up for sale.

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475471
02/03/13 11:34 am
02/03/13 11:34 am
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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GTS Rider is right that the cases are beefed up. Brian Jones in an interview when the elcetric start was introduced said retro-fitting was a factory job and mentioend a Jubilee owner wanting his converted. If it is possible to make a T120 with T140 cases or possible to suitably machine the T120 cases then all well and good. As to what is beefed up, all i know is there is a bush in the timing chest to take the strain of the gear train movement.
Left foot brakes on a late T140 is easier. The Meriden co-op were simply converting an engine originally designed for right foot gearshifting and left foot brakes ! I've seen enough bikes so converted to know it's possible to DIY-it. There's even a photo of a TSX on Wikipedia so converted which is also featured in the rare book, Original Triumph Bonneville by Gerard Kane & James Mann.


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475477
02/03/13 12:19 pm
02/03/13 12:19 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,275
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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JubeePrince  Offline

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Back on the mainland!
It's too bad the factory didn't have the resources (see: money) to do the mod right like QPD (or even Norton for that matter) did. Having the starter on the clutch side makes it easier to start a bike not in good tune. If you end up with a backfire or kickback on the factory electric start (timing side), you can wreak havoc on the timing gears and valve train...

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475509
02/03/13 3:42 pm
02/03/13 3:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,820
Laredo (South) Texas, USA
GrandPaul Online content
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GrandPaul  Online Content
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Laredo (South) Texas, USA
Bob Osborn (QPD) is slowing down (aren't we all?); he takes a good while to modify each client's engine and install the system. "time is money". I think it was a 6-month wait when i talked to him a few years ago, I believe it's longer now (although I could be wrong).


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: JubeePrince] #475526
02/03/13 4:33 pm
02/03/13 4:33 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Steve,

Originally Posted By: JubeePrince
If you end up with a backfire or kickback on the factory electric start (timing side), you can wreak havoc on the timing gears and valve train...

Aiui, Meriden then beefed-up the timing gears whistle ... then went toes-up financially not long afterwards ... cry

Regards,

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475530
02/03/13 4:53 pm
02/03/13 4:53 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,057
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Online content

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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,057
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote:
Aiui, Meriden then beefed-up the timing gears


And that was a disaster! Instead of the gear mechanism coming to harm it just moved the eventual catastrophe to more and more expensive parts. The final iteration of gears and pinions Brian Jones came up with when he was working for LF Harris in the mid 80's led to the starter breaking crankcases. Each iteration of the update to the electric starter kit led to more, and more expensive parts being broken. Instead of fixing why it didn't work, and protect the bits when it did back fire, they kept trying to patch it up, make it stronger. If you are anal about keeping the battery fully charged you can usually use the starter, but one back fire can lead to an expensive repair.


Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475684
02/04/13 7:19 pm
02/04/13 7:19 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 202
Tampa, FL
T
trumpettwin Offline
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T
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 202
Tampa, FL
I bought a electric start unit on eBay several years ago. My intention was to convert my 1977 Bonneville to e-start. I never got around to it and have since bought a 1982 T140ES, again on eBay (Sorry Leonc, The bike was in MN and after shipping I have about 2K in it). I read the posts here about converting earlier models to e-start and it scared me some. The thought that I could end up with broken cases on my darling 77... Oh My! The question that ran through my mind was, with a zero advance ignition like the Lucas e-ignition, what is the chance of a kick back starting? For set-up, I would use the kick starter. I am 66 yo now and even if the e-start doesn't spin it up every time, a little help with the kick would be good.
The ES I bought looked like it was wrecked and put away. It appears that someone tried to bring it back but were unsuccessful. I found the starter wires and the starter functions. I intend to replace the dented parts with 70's tank and maybe even some 60's looks.
The starter that I said that I wouldn't take a thousand dollars for has made a liar of me. The start system is complete except for the sprag clutch and the clip that holds the starter motor gear onto the shaft. The solenoid is there too. The starter motor turns over when powered but I have not measured RPM or other attributes. The small cover that covers the starter motor drive is cracked but the attaching bolts align with the threaded holes in the main cover. I'm sure it can be fixed.
Anybody that wants to convert, I'll take a thousand dollars for the unit plus whatever it takes to get it to you (should be less than $20. in the US).
Randy


65 T20 Mountain Cub
69 TR6R (with 73 TR7R engine)
73 TR5T
77 T140V
79 ES Street Tracker (in the planning stage)
Enough parts to build a couple more. smile
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: GrandPaul] #475690
02/04/13 8:44 pm
02/04/13 8:44 pm
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,095
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Matthew in TO Offline
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Matthew in TO  Offline
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Posts: 1,095
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I like the electric start layout proposed for the T100 twin. IIRC the starter was located in front of the engine, not behind.

It's not that Triumph didn't have experience with electric start, as the scooters were thus equipped. Of course, we know how well they sold...

Last edited by Matthew in TO; 02/04/13 8:44 pm.

1970 Triumph T100S (1969 T100S motor)
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Matthew in TO] #475751
02/05/13 6:23 am
02/05/13 6:23 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,536
Scotland
Hi Matthew,

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
I like the electric start layout proposed for the T100 twin. IIRC the starter was located in front of the engine, not behind.

It isn't so much where the starter's located, as its connection to the crank; as John alludes, the problem with the big twin is that the timing gears were used for that connection, and the whole area - gears and their mountings - was never intended to take the loads that can be generated by attempting to electric-start a cold 375cc cylinder. frown

Otoh, the putative "T100" set-up I've seen, as well as actually only afaik being on a 350 - so only having to swing over 175cc - the starter was in a similar position to the old dynamo, and connected to the crank by a chain. The only problem with that would've been whether Meriden could've come up with a reliable sprag-clutch.

Originally Posted By: Matthew in TO
It's not that Triumph didn't have experience with electric start, as the scooters were thus equipped.

You're forgetting the T160. The set-up on them uses the same M3 starter originally used on those much-smaller scooter engines, is basically good and, given a couple of tweaks, is bog-reliable. But it's connected to the clutch, which is connected to the crank by the primary chain. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475775
02/05/13 10:44 am
02/05/13 10:44 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,513
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Online content
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,513
UK Berks
anybody seen the A10 on youtube that the guy who started SRM built?

I have wondered how hard it would be for a competent engineer to adapt it for Triumphs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvKy9l75u4&feature=plcp

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475871
02/05/13 11:10 pm
02/05/13 11:10 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,601
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
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Posts: 3,601
ca, us
I believe that starter is connected through the back side of the primary. You do not have that space available on the unit twins.

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475899
02/06/13 3:28 am
02/06/13 3:28 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
K
KADUTZ Offline
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KADUTZ  Offline
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K
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
Ann-Margret had a Triumph converted to electric start using a Honda starter. Anybody have any knowledge about this conversion, who did it, and which Triumph was converted?

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475901
02/06/13 3:43 am
02/06/13 3:43 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,601
ca, us
D
DMadigan Online content
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ca, us
I believe Dan Macias (Triumph race team manager) did the conversion. 1966 Tiger 100C (Triumph in America).

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #475916
02/06/13 6:50 am
02/06/13 6:50 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 161
Texas
billysguitars Offline
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billysguitars  Offline
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Posts: 161
Texas
Click on the link below and see if it doesn't bring up a photo of that bike.
Billy


<http://www.flickr.com/photos/triumph_brescia/5303131930/>


Bunch of 60s Bonnies (mostly in pieces), a 46/48 T100 project, a 73 Commando Interstate, 58 Cub, 68 Norton P11 project and one barely started slimline/pre unit Triton
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #476028
02/07/13 2:35 am
02/07/13 2:35 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
K
KADUTZ Offline
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KADUTZ  Offline
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K
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 780
in my house
Thanks for the come back guys

K


1970 T120RT
1978 T140V
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #476042
02/07/13 9:25 am
02/07/13 9:25 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,527
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
D
dave jones Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I met a chap with an electric start BSA B33! It was amazing to see a 500 single start so easily on a button. He said the conversion was nearly 2000!

Dave

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: billysguitars] #476080
02/07/13 5:59 pm
02/07/13 5:59 pm
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,610
London United Kingdom
meriden4ever Offline
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meriden4ever  Offline
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London United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: billysguitars
Click on the link below and see if it doesn't bring up a photo of that bike.
Billy


<http://www.flickr.com/photos/triumph_brescia/5303131930/>


I don't think that is the electric start T100 but instead the bike that she rode in the The Swinger


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: meriden4ever] #476216
02/08/13 9:57 pm
02/08/13 9:57 pm
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,562
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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Illinois, USA
I'd suspect that, back in the day, whatever she sat on would start automatically.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: TR6Ray] #476217
02/08/13 10:03 pm
02/08/13 10:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,138
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted By: TR6Ray
I'd suspect that, back in the day, whatever she sat on would start automatically.


Yeah some things would.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #476395
02/10/13 7:24 am
02/10/13 7:24 am
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 930
Nor. California
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Deadstiffcatt Offline
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Nor. California
There is currently one of the electric start models available on E-bay for a reasonable price. Perhaps it's an alternative idea to purchase outright vs. the cost of modification to your current bike?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1982-Triu...0#ht_790wt_1155

Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Deadstiffcatt] #476808
02/13/13 9:18 pm
02/13/13 9:18 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 65
New Zealand
L
Leonc Offline OP
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Posts: 65
New Zealand
Thanks for all the responses, I have been away for a week or so and just caught up with all the latest postings.
At this point I may see how things go eg. wait, the ES on eBay has a buy now of US$5k, which if it was on my back doorstep could be an option but is not realistic when you are on then other side of the world, transport, govt fees, registration costs etc.
It is all useful information though.


Leon
1968 D/14 Bushman
1968 D/14 Trials
1968 Triton T120 Morgo E/S
1969 Trident Beauty Kit
1970 T100C Scrambler
1971 Rocket 3 Export
Re: Electric Start- Retro fitting? [Re: Leonc] #481208
03/14/13 2:22 am
03/14/13 2:22 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 202
Tampa, FL
T
trumpettwin Offline
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Tampa, FL
After talking to some members on here, I've decided to sell my electric start kit. It is on eBay because none of us know what it is worth. lol The starter is at: http://www.eBay.com/itm/330888634871?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649.


65 T20 Mountain Cub
69 TR6R (with 73 TR7R engine)
73 TR5T
77 T140V
79 ES Street Tracker (in the planning stage)
Enough parts to build a couple more. smile

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