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650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS #479552
03/03/13 2:30 pm
03/03/13 2:30 pm
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koan58 Offline OP
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I have replaced the 4 cam bushes in my 650 pre-unit.
The blind driveside bushes are tight, so need line reaming.
I had hoped to get the reaming kit from Britcycle, but they have sold out & are not re-stocking. This was the only source I could find.

Does anyone know another source? I'm in the UK, but any source will help!

Alternatively, I wonder if I can use a standard long hand reamer & get a sleeve turned up for it?
I know at least some, maybe all, hand reamers have a taper start, which won't suit this job.
Is the Triumph reamer a special, or is it possible to use a standard type?

I've looked at UK suppliers of long hand reamers, the few 13/16" I've found are staggeringly expensive 80+ (not sure they'll even do the job), the whole kit from Britcycle was ~60, when they last had them.

Any help much appreciated Dave

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Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479563
03/03/13 2:54 pm
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Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479583
03/03/13 5:03 pm
03/03/13 5:03 pm
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Thanks Kom,
I had read that previously, with understanding.
My problem is getting hold of the tools.
Kits no longer available from BCS, need to know whether it needs a special Triumph reamer, or can a standard available reamer be used?
If so, where could I find it?

In which case I would have the sleeve made for it. The ball is not a problem.
Thanks Dave

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479586
03/03/13 5:29 pm
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I reamed blind cam bushes in a Norton twin case using a normal std size reamer and it was fine, I piloted it off the timing side bush somehow but can't remember the details and the reamer was borrowed from the factory toolroom where I worked.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479588
03/03/13 5:40 pm
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I'm almost certain the reamer in the BCS kit is a standard 13/16" straight shank chucking reamer. I can look at my kit tomorrow and see if they're any part numbers or marking on the reamer. I can also measure it, if nobody with one closer at hand chimes in before then.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479600
03/03/13 6:38 pm
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Thanks Eric
Will be much appreciated.
Is it straight flute, presumably with no taper?
If you can give me the length from the tip to the end of flutes, to start of plain shank, to end of plain shank
will be a great help!
Dave

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479639
03/03/13 11:21 pm
03/03/13 11:21 pm
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You've got 2 choices:
*Used a fixed-size machine reamer and hope you get 0.002" clearance.Measure your cam journal and the reamer first.
*Set the crankcases up in a milling machine,and bore the bushes to the size you want.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479644
03/03/13 11:59 pm
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Originally Posted By: koan58
long hand reamers, the few 13/16" I've found are staggeringly expensive 80+
I don't remember what it cost, or what bike I bought it for, but the 1-3/8" reamer in my toolchest must have cost a few pence more than that. It's massive.

Originally Posted By: Pete R
You've got 2 choices:
A third choice is to use an adjustable reamer. But, I doubt that this would be necessary. If the bushing is supposed to be 13/16" ID, the shaft that goes into it will have been ground a few thou. smaller to provide the necessary clearance. Bushings are "always" made the nominal size, and shafts that spin in them are "always" made appropriately smaller than nominal, because it's a lot cheaper to grind shafts undersize than it is to buy special reamers a few thou. oversize. (I put 'always' in quotes, because I'm sure there are exceptions to be found somewhere).

Originally Posted By: koan58
Is it straight flute, presumably with no taper?
If you can give me the length from the tip to the end of flutes, to start of plain shank, to end of plain shank
will be a great help!
My straight flute 13/16" reamer is 9" long, with the flutes and the plain shank each covering exactly half of that. The end of each flute is beveled to a depth of less than 0.04" so as long as your cam doesn't need every iota of depth, it would be fine.

I have a 9/16" reamer with 7/16" shaft that I modified for just such a "line boring" operation on a different bike. I machined a 9/16" OD brass sleeve that slips over its straight shank so the outer bushing accurately aligns the reamer to the inner bushing.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Magnetoman] #479651
03/04/13 12:37 am
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You won't fit an expanding reamer into a blind hole (I sometimes wish it would work).You can't ream to the bottom of the hole.

Hand reamers have a lead-in taper at the start,so they are undersize and tapered on that end (not much help in this case).Hand reamers typically have a square drive on the blunt end.

A machine reamer is full diameter at the start.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #479660
03/04/13 1:15 am
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
You won't fit an expanding reamer into a blind hole (I sometimes wish it would work).You can't ream to the bottom of the hole.

Hand reamers have a lead-in taper at the start,so they are undersize and tapered on that end (not much help in this case).Hand reamers typically have a square drive on the blunt end.

A machine reamer is full diameter at the start.


The BCS kit uses a machine ("chucking" in the vernacular) reamer with a ground shank and no drive on the end, so I assume there's no lead taper, but I'll measure for it anyway. Here's a photo of the BCS kit:




Btw, 80.00 is way too much to pay for a 13/16 HSS reamer. They're about $60.00 from a reputable American machine shop supplier and less on e-bay.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: BikeVice] #479711
03/04/13 5:29 am
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Originally Posted By: BikeVice
Btw, 80.00 is way too much to pay for a 13/16 HSS reamer.
Not necessarily the cheapest or the best, but this supplier has them for $30 (Indian or Chinese) or $50 (U.S.):

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=73&PMCTLG=00

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #479891
03/05/13 1:33 am
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Ok, I measured the reamer in my BCS kit. It's an 8 flute chucking reamer with no markings on it at all, not even a size. The shank is 0.6235", so maybe the shank was once 0.6250 and the markings were polished/ground/worn off in the course reducing the o.d. for bushing clearance. It measures 0.8123-0.8125 across the flutes, which are about 2.50" long with a small chamfer at each end. The shank is about 7.00" long, making the reamer 9.50".


Eric

Btw, are you planning work on a lot of these motors in the future? If not, since you seem to have access to a lathe, it would be easy to remove your new bushings, bore them, and reinstall them?


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: BikeVice] #479898
03/05/13 2:35 am
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Originally Posted By: BikeVice

since you seem to have access to a lathe, it would be easy to remove your new bushings, bore them, and reinstall them?

That could work well enough,if you get 2 things right:

*The bore must be Concentric with the O.D.

*You'd need to give them extra clearance,to allow for the interference fit in the crankcase.If the interference is 0.001",allow 0.0015" extra clearance.If you wanted 0.002" clearance when fitted,you'd bore them to 0.0035" clearance before fitting.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #479903
03/05/13 2:52 am
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
Originally Posted By: BikeVice
remove your new bushings, bore them, and reinstall them?
That could work well enough,if you get 2 things right:
That could give them have the right ID, but it would defeat the reason for line reaming them in the first place. That is, to make them coaxial (as well as have the right ID).

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Magnetoman] #479909
03/05/13 3:35 am
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Originally Posted By: Magnetoman
That could give them have the right ID, but it would defeat the reason for line reaming them in the first place. That is, to make them coaxial (as well as have the right ID).

True enough.Technically,it's not ideal.
It's about as bad as sizing the timing-side bushes by just pushing a 7/8" ball through them,which also does nothing for alignment (something I've never done).

In practice,it seems to work well enough.The holes in the crankcase would need to be way out of alignment to cause a big problem.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #479916
03/05/13 4:34 am
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
......The holes in the crankcase would need to be way out of alignment to cause a big problem.


Exactly. Anyway, I don't think the BCS kit was designed to ensure anywhere near perfect coaxiality of the cam bushings, that's a job for a machinist and a mill. It's a pilot arrangement enabling a careful mechanic to ream the blind bushing to an adequate clearance at much less than the 2 or 3 askew he might achieve free handed.

Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #479997
03/05/13 6:08 pm
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
The holes in the crankcase would need to be way out of alignment to cause a big problem.
I don't know how the cases were machined originally by the factory. If they were clamped as a pair that remained together as a pair when those holes were bored, alignment is unlikely to be an issue. However, if the holes were bored separately, then bushes installed, then line reamed after the cases were bolted together, alignment easily could be an issue. The bored holes in the cases would not have to be coaxial (or even parallel) in order for the bushes installed in them and then line reamed to be coaxial.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #480021
03/05/13 8:13 pm
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Many thanks to all of you for your food for thought opinions/info.
Thanks to Eric for the BCS reamer info, I'm still trying to get hold of one, but they've recently stopped offering them.
I'm led to believe this was a Triumph USA innovation, if so then I guess in the factory it would have been done by a special tool that reamed both bushes in line together?
Thanks also to PeteR, you seem to suggest that line reaming may not be absolutely essential, milling the drive side bushes may in practice suffice (I'm pretty sure my case halves belong together, I've had them since 1979.
I had been hoping to "get the new bushes to fit the cam journals", as the cams are in good shape, the timing side journals are ~0.8725", drive side journals ~0.8080".
So it's the blind drive side bushes I hope to keep perhaps a little tighter than standard, to compensate for the couple of thou wear.
Do you think I'm going up my own ... on this?
Would you consider those drive side journals worn out?
Many thanks Dave

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #480029
03/05/13 9:04 pm
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The timing side journal is only 0.001" under spec.
The main thing is the clearance in the bush; 0.0005"-0.002" is the spec for new parts.
You'd easily get the clearance right if you used an expanding reamer to size the bush.

Also check the end-float in the timing side bushes.You may need to mill something off their length.
0.004" end float would be a safe minimum when the camwheel is tightened,even though the manual says 0.013".

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #480150
03/06/13 6:53 pm
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Thanks Pete,
That seems ok for the timing side, which as you say is only ~0.001" below spec, in fact the journals seem to go through the installed bushes on that side without any attention, though I haven't yet had the chance to see if that is still true when the cases are joined, as I haven't been able to size the new installed drive side bushes, as they are too tight to let the journals in.

If necessary, an adjustable reamer or ball could sort out those timing side bushes.

It is the blind drive side bushes that pose a great problem, they slipped over my ~0.002" under spec journals easily when loose, but once installed they are too tight to let the cam journals in. I guess the tightening is a result of both the interference fit, and possibly some "squashing up" from having to knock them in (not heavily but even so some tapping required despite hot case and frozen bushes).
Once installed, they have to be wrecked to get them out with a tap, and once installed I don't see how an adjustable reamer could be used?
The reaming kit is no longer available from BCS, a suitable machine reamer I cannot currently find in the UK for below the 80 mark. A big part of my satisfaction with these bikes is doing it myself, when I know it should be possible!

One remaining unexplored avenue is "reaming not required" bushes available from TriSupply, I've asked Oliver for details, he will only say "they work", so I'm left to assume that they have a large initial ID to guarantee they won't bind even on new cam journals.
My drive side journals are ~0.002" under, so with a standard bush bore, this would add up to ~0.004" clearance, with the "reaming not required" bushes, perhaps even more.
Does anyone have any experience of these "reaming not required" bushes?
Pete, how much clearance in the driveside bushes is acceptable until you would say they are knackered? To my mind, they are right next to the followers, so perhaps more critical than the timing side bushes?

Many thanks Dave

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #480184
03/06/13 10:10 pm
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Originally Posted By: koan58

Pete, how much clearance in the driveside bushes is acceptable until you would say they are knackered? To my mind, they are right next to the followers, so perhaps more critical than the timing side bushes?


The clearance given in the manual is 0.001"-0.0025" for new parts,but I don't think it's anywhere near that critical.

I don't think you'd notice any problem even if the clearance was 0.010".What's the worst thing that could happen?

*You'd lose about 2 degrees of cam duration (100 rpm change in torque peak?)
*Very slight increase in timing gear backlash;hardly measurable (less than 0.0005").
*The worst thing could be a slight angle between the tappet face and cam lobe.That would be less than 0.0004" across the width of the lobe,with 0.008" more clearance in the cam bush.Tappet stem clearance would accomodate most of that.
*You might get a little more noise at the cam bush,but the journal is more or less held against the bottom of the bush.

Your best option could be to bore the bushes in a vertical milling machine.
Put equal sized blocks under 4 engine mount bolt bosses.Clamp the case down with a plate or big washer in the centre and single large bolt through the main bearing hole.Clock the parting face of the crankcase with a dial gauge to make sure it's level.

Centre up on one bush. Put the timing side case in place,just to see if the timing side bush is on the same axis and still centred.Lift the timing side case out of the way,and bore the drive side bush.
Do much the same to bore the other bush.

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: koan58] #480331
03/07/13 9:00 pm
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Thanks Pete for that extra detail, and every one else for your perspectives.
I'm still trying to assemble the DIY reamer kit, as I don't have ready access to serious machine tools, such as mill.
May have to admit defeat and get it done elsewhere in the end, or give these "reaming not required" bushes a go.
Thanks again everybody
Dave

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Pete R - R.I.P.] #480338
03/07/13 9:42 pm
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Originally Posted By: Pete R
I don't think you'd notice any problem even if the clearance was 0.010".
Since England has been a metric country for quite a while that might mean metric reamers could be a lot cheaper than Imperial. I'm not recommending you do it, but note that 20.75 mm is only ~ 4 thou. larger than the proper 13/16".

Re: 650 CAM BUSH REAMING KIT/TOOLS [Re: Magnetoman] #480391
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